DL COO on RJs and the "future"........?

[ASARJMan]

Would it be better to just install some first class seats on our existing or future 70 seaters (CR7s)? Bye Bye--General Lee

Our? Too funny Jen! Keep reasoning out the jump from 19 seats to, 30, then 50, then 66, then 70, and now 76. Hmmm maybe 90 next? You verrrrrry funny grasshopper Jen.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

Actually, I think my avitar is pretty cool.....I would post a picture of you, but I couldn't locate any pictures of a horses a$$ anywhere.

737

If we're gonna use elementary insults......Go look in the mirror. TOOL!

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

I think you need help man! All your posts are in response to 1 person, even creating a user name to "flame"!
Grab a beer, hang out with the lady, and get laid! It will be alright in the morning! You are taking this internet thing way to seriously!

Actually the quote you used was in response to another person.

 

[~~~^~~~]

how long can Dan Ford continue this useless crusade?

Until he wins.

 

[General Lee]

Our? Too funny Jen! Keep reasoning out the jump from 19 seats to, 30, then 50, then 66, then 70, and now 76. Hmmm maybe 90 next? You verrrrrry funny grasshopper Jen.

I highly doubt it, but it sounds like you would LOVE it. You need to re-read the Whitehurst comments, which were made to non-pilot employees, who are just as concerned about RJ growth (and loss of their own jobs) as the rest of us. Sounds like Whitehurst has figured out that RJs have their limits.


Bye Bye--General Lee

PS---here you go again: (via Sinca3 and the DL E170 thread)


thought these comments from Jim Whitehurst (COO DAL) during a employee chat session on 5/11/06 were intresting:
Question 1- The Cost per Available Seat Mile of the regional jets is very high in comparison to mainline service, and passengers are beginning to dislike flying them, especially on some of the longer flights. Are the numbers of RJs in Delta's fleet justified by the revenue generation they produce in some of the smaller cities?
Answer from Jim Whitehurst:
Currently, RJ CASMs are significantly higher than mainline. That was not the case prior to our 2004 restructuring, when our mainline costs were high and fuel costs were low (RJs are much less fuel efficient on a CASM basis). Clearly given our new mainline cost structure and current high fuel costs, I'd rather have more mainline aircraft and fewer RJs. Getting new mainline aircraft will take time. In the interim, we need to continue serving those cities. So, while we are reducing our number of RJs substantially while in bankruptcy, they will remain a core part of our fleet.
Question 2- Presubmitted Question The 737-200's and 737-300's will be retiring more this fall. You have mentioned that they might be replaced eventually by 737-700's or smaller 70 or 90 seat jets. If they are replaced with the smaller planes, other than the 737-700, won't there be a loss of more Delta jobs, pilots, flight attendants, and possibly ground staff since a Connection Carrier would be flying those jets? If that is true, is there anyway for Delta mainline pilots and flight attendants to work those planes. Yes, Delta would be expanding, but Delta people would continue to be downsized. Can you address these issues?
Answer from Jim Whitehurst- Any aircraft above 76 seats will be flown by mainline. To be clear, the 76 seaters are a marginal economic boost over a 70 seater (required post NW ability to fly them.) We view them as a 70 seater with slightly better economics. They do not replace our need for a 100 seater in the mainline. Any 100 seater would be in the mainline and will likely be growth aircraft, creating new jobs.

 

[arthompson]

Why do you ignore the "jump" from 105 seats to 50 seats, with a few 70 seaters? This question is relevant, as the legality of changes made to the CY96 scope is getting closer to trial. I understand that discovery in the suit is pretty much completed and the next phase will see the RJDC litigation on the trial calendar.

I'm just curious, what makes you think that a BAE-146-200 carried 105 seats? The airframe isn't capable of more than 88 seats at a 31" pitch.

 

[737 Pylt]

If we're gonna use elementary insults......Go look in the mirror. TOOL!

I use elementary insults because I have to lower myself to speak on your level! Now get back to your stalking!

Until he wins.

Like I said previously....You'll be wearing size small in depends! But if that's what it will take for you guys to keep the donations coming, all the more money for Ford & co.! I sure hope you haven't spent all your $$millions!
737

 

[HoserASA]

I'm just curious, what makes you think that a BAE-146-200 carried 105 seats? The airframe isn't capable of more than 88 seats at a 31" pitch.

The BAE146s ASA flew were configured for 88 seats, five of them I believe. ASA also had another BAE that had either 100 or 105 seats.

Hoser

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

I use elementary insults because I have to lower myself to speak on your level!
737

So, do you have something snappy like "767 HERO" on you license plate?

It would match your avitar. I bet you wear a boeing ball cap to the market when you shop just hoping some school boy will beg you to explain the career path to an airline job.

 

[PCL_128]

Until he wins.

So, in other words, never. What a shame that you and the rest of the RJDC gang are wasting your lives and money on such a useless and hopeless endeavor. Don't you think your time would be better spent by running for an elected office within ALPA and trying to change things the right way?

 

[737 Pylt]

So, do you have something snappy like "767 HERO" on you license plate?

It would match your avitar. I bet you wear a boeing ball cap to the market when you shop just hoping some school boy will beg you to explain the career path to an airline job.

Yawn...Give it up girl...
I don't go to the market, when I get to your house, food is already cooked!
737

 

[surplus1]

Actually, I think my avitar is pretty cool.....I would post a picture of you, but I couldn't locate any pictures of a horses a$$ anywhere.
737

Kudos. First witty post I've seen you make in a year of Sundays.

PS. I like my avatar too - it's historic. The soundtrack is a dirge but I can't figure out how to make it play.

 

[surplus1]

Don't you think your time would be better spent by running for an elected office within ALPA and trying to change things the right way?

Nope, that has no possibility of ever working. The litgatigation is not only the right way, it's the only way to achieve equity.

Maybe litigation won't work but at least ALPA has no ability to gerrymander the outcome. "How sweeeet it is!"

 

[~~~^~~~]

What a shame that you and the rest of the RJDC gang are wasting your lives and money on such a useless and hopeless endeavor. Don't you think your time would be better spent by running for an elected office within ALPA and trying to change things the right way?

Lets see, amongst the RJDC leadership I count a MEC Chair, Sec Treasurer, Safety Comm Chair, Pro Standards Rep. and I'm sure I'm forgetting people, or don't know their complete history of ALPA work.

All the ALPA channels were tried first before being forced into litigation. Any luck with Wychor? He seems to think the best thing for you guys is to lose your jobs so that you can have the opportunity to seek real employment at a real airline.

 

[737 Pylt]

Lets see, amongst the RJDC leadership I count a MEC Chair, Sec Treasurer, Safety Comm Chair, Pro Standards Rep. and I'm sure I'm forgetting people, or don't know their complete history of ALPA work.

All the ALPA channels were tried first before being forced into litigation. Any luck with Wychor? He seems to think the best thing for you guys is to lose your jobs so that you can have the opportunity to seek real employment at a real airline.

And with all that fantastic leadership you got 9 of 10 claims dismissed from Judge Glasser!
I sure hope you girls haven't spent all your $$ millions yet!
737

 

[~~~^~~~]

I sure hope you girls haven't spent all your $$ millions yet!
737

Girls with millions? I'd go to more meetings if I ever saw a Simpson sister, or a Hilton daughter there. Dan's very smart and a heck of a good guy, but he'd make one ugly Daisy Duke.

uke:

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I was wondering how long it was going to take the legacy carriers to figure out that the "increased revenue" the smaller jets would generate with increased frequency of service has never materialized.

It is interesting that all but one carrier that operates a fee for departure "regional" fleet is losing money. The mainlines are finally figuring out how to get the RJ operators to compete against one another, and the prediction is a healthy dose of red ink for the RJ operators. This will likely increase the pace of the "race to the bottom" for RJ operators. I would expect the wage situation to get worse as more of these jets are parked and more RJ pilots hit the streets.

 

[737 Pylt]

Girls with millions? I'd go to more meetings if I ever saw a Simpson sister, or a Hilton daughter there.

Fins:
Respectfully, I don't think you're all there if you have the hots for Bart Simpsons 2 sisters, especially Lisa, with that voice!

Dan's very smart and a heck of a good guy, but he'd make one ugly Daisy Duke.

If you call throwing countless $$ into a lawsuit that was all but dismissed, then you're right he is smarter by making himself and his lawyer richer by the day!
Keep those checks coming, Ford's getting smarter (and richer) by the hour!

737

 

[PCL_128]

Lets see, amongst the RJDC leadership I count a MEC Chair, Sec Treasurer, Safety Comm Chair, Pro Standards Rep. and I'm sure I'm forgetting people, or don't know their complete history of ALPA work.

All the ALPA channels were tried first before being forced into litigation.

"If at first you don't suceed,..." well, you know the rest. Real change takes time and lots of effort. From what I can see, the RJDC "leadership" paid lip service to working within the system and then quickly filed a lawsuit that contained claims for billions of dollars in damages. This might not be about money for you and surplus1, but it certainly was for Dan and friends. When their monetary claims where thrown out, they just clung to what little bit was left of their lawsuit in a vain attempt to "get even" with those mean, mean Delta pilots. That lawsuit is a joke. Anyone that wants to see real change to ALPA should distance themself as far from it and the RJDC as possible.

Any luck with Wychor? He seems to think the best thing for you guys is to lose your jobs so that you can have the opportunity to seek real employment at a real airline.

The last time I spoke directly to Captain Wychor was a couple of months ago when he visited us at our MEC meeting. I haven't talked to him since the company's 1113(c) filing was dismissed, so I'm not sure what the latest status on their negotiations is. Your characterization, however, is not accurate at all from what I can tell from speaking to Tom. He certainly has his pilots' best interests at heart, as does the rest of the XJ MEC and NC.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Your characterization, however, is not accurate at all from what I can tell from speaking to Tom. He certainly has his pilots' best interests at heart, as does the rest of the XJ MEC and NC.

I hear he is a "true believer" and one of the few folks passionate about ALPA's approach. However, with the Compass deal it seems that the logic around there is "what's good for the Northwest pilots is good for me."

 

[PCL_128]

I hear he is a "true believer" and one of the few folks passionate about ALPA's approach. However, with the Compass deal it seems that the logic around there is "what's good for the Northwest pilots is good for me."

Tom does seem to be a "true believer," but that doesn't necessarily translate to agreeing with everything that every MEC or NC has done. I'm about as "true believer" as they come, but I view Newco (Compass) as nothing but a disease on the face of this profession. 64% of the NWA pilots sold out our last hope of brand scope and of salvaging this career.

Don't assume that us "true believers" agree with everything ever done within ALPA. We simply choose to work within the system, even it feels futile sometimes.

 

[~~~^~~~]

"If at first you don't suceed,..." well, you know the rest. Real change takes time and lots of effort. From what I can see, the RJDC "leadership" paid lip service to working within the system and then quickly filed a lawsuit that contained claims for billions of dollars in damages.

It is interesting that when we fight for a restoration of the union back to its founding principles of bringing professional pilots together and fighting alter ego that you consider it a "change." Has ALPA gone so far down the road to individual self interest that its' function as a union is a fundemental "change?"

As far as the law suit goes, there is nothing stopping ALPA from enforcement of its Constitution and compliance with its obligations to all members immediately, the sooner the better.

In Miller v. ALPA, the union paid nearly $1,000,000.00 to keep from having to comply with a depositive motion (allowing members a look see at ALPA's financial records). If it was worth a million to keep records which are public in every corporation then what is your guess how much ALPA has put on the table to try to make a legitimate DFR case go away? If Dan was in it for the money, he would have already cashed out.

This is about returning the union to its core beliefs of promoting the interests of its membership, raising the profession and being responsive to its members. What a shame that that is a change.

I wonder if the Delta MEC is going to be asked their opinion on whether ASA's strike vote should be authorized?

~~~^~~~

P.S. I forgot, who was the leader of the Sunjet DFR case (with many similarities to the RJDC litigation) that settled and who now is an ALPA VP?

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

when I get to your house, food is already cooked!
737

Actually You got the wrong house ya freak.

My neighbor is pretty upset with you too. He is tired of picking up the trash you pull across his front yard when you eat, his toilets are backed up and his cat is pregnant now.

And to make it worse for him, he doesn't think your State of Georgia Unemployment check is going to cover his cat's vet bills after your trailer queen gets her alimony from it.

Will your AirTran 1st year FO pay be more than an Unemployment Check?

Well, good luck.....

 

[arthompson]

The BAE146s ASA flew were configured for 88 seats, five of them I believe. ASA also had another BAE that had either 100 or 105 seats.

Hoser

The 146-300 is a 100 seat aircraft. I have experiance with those airplanes from having handled them at ZW. What a great airplane that was

 

[737 Pylt]

Actually You got the wrong house ya freak.

Not really, I just followed the sign that said "busses welcome."

 

[surplus1]

"If at first you don't suceed,..." well, you know the rest. Real change takes time and lots of effort. From what I can see, the RJDC "leadership" paid lip service to working within the system and then quickly filed a lawsuit that contained claims for billions of dollars in damages.

"From what I can see" --- therein lies your problem. You don't know, you can't see, and you listen only to one of the two sides. If what ALPA has done is ligitimate, I wish they would spend as much time mustering a solid legal defense to the litigation as they do waging a political propaganda campaign against it and stalling at every opportunity.

The propaganda may play well to a cadre of naive regional pilots and self-righteous mainline pilots but that doesn't count for much. Propaganda is not admissable in court. They will have to produce more than that, much more.

"If at first you don't succeed" is a clever cliche -- the truth is the effort was ongoing long before you were even a pilot, and I don't mean just a PCL. I'm not trying to disparage or offend you, but the simple truth is you're a babe in the woods in terms of how long or by what means equity and fair representation has been sought from ALPA, with respect to this issue and those directly linked to it.

The only party to this lawsuit that is guilty of "lip service" to anything is the Airline Pilots Association. In fact that is their history. They stall, they obstruct, they propagandize, they form useless do nothing committees, they deal from the bottom of the deck and they make false statements. In the final analysis, the evidence will show whether that is so or not.

You may not like the amount of the damages claimed but you don't need to worry about that. If the courts don't think the amount of the claim is justified they will award a lesser sum.

This might not be about money for you and surplus1, but it certainly was for Dan and friends.

You're just dead wrong. It isn't about money for "Dan and friends" an never has been. I don't think you know Dan Ford or any of the principals to the litigation. I know them all personally. This has always been about equity, not money. If you are as well versed about it as you pretend to be you would know that without any comments from me.

When their monetary claims where thrown out, they just clung to what little bit was left of their lawsuit in a vain attempt to "get even" with those mean, mean Delta pilots.

As you well know the suit is not against the Delta pilots, it is against the ALPA. The Delta pilots are only one of several groups that ALPA has chosen to favor and prefer at the expense of others.

While it is true that the counts of the complaint were reduced from 10 to 1, that wasn't because anything was "thrown out". That too is propaganda. What the judge did was determine that all of the counts were esentially the same and could be heard as one instead of ten. He didn't throw them out he just consolidated them into a single DFR complaint. He even went so far as to recommend a "class action" which greatly expands those covered by the evntual outcome.

Tell me, have you actually read the judge's ruling yourself or are you just repeating what you've been told by those interested in getting this to go away?

I don't blame ALPA or you for trying to "spin" the whole thing to your favor, that is always what a defendant does when he knows he doesn't have the law on his side. In the vernacular it's known as an attempt to "dazzle them with bull$h*t". ALPA is very good at that. You are welcome to spin but it will not win the case.

That lawsuit is a joke.

We won't know that until it is decided and we see who comes out laughing, will we. You remind me of Enron's Kenneth Lay. He thought it was a joke too, right up until the moment the jury delivered its verdict. We shall see how funny ALPA thinks it is when the jury decides this one. Maybe they'll be smiling because they got away with cheating; then again maybe they won't.

Anyone that wants to see real change to ALPA should distance themself as far from it and the RJDC as possible.

Any regional pilot with smarts who wants to see real change at ALPA with respect to the issue of fair representation would be prudent to realize that the RJDC is the only way it will ever happen. Should the RJDC lose this fight, regional pilots will continue to be systematically descriminated against for the remainder of their tenure in ALPA, and it will get far worse than it has been.

I haven't talked to him since the company's 1113(c) filing was dismissed,

Before you call that "dismissed" you might take the time to read the judge's opinion. I think you'll find that he left the door wide open for the company to restate its claim. This round in the battle was favorable to ALPA but its far from over.

As the saying goes, "don't count your chickens before they hatch."

 

[PCL_128]

"From what I can see" --- therein lies your problem. You don't know, you can't see, and you listen only to one of the two sides.

I can't get inside Dan's head, so the best I or anyone else can do is to look at the facts and make a determination. You claim that I only listen to one side, but that's far from the reality of the situation. I've read most of the material on the RJDC website, including the original lawsuit that contained the absurd monetary claims. I read those silly little update messages that Dan posts on the ALPA boards (for which an Article 8 claim should be brought against him, but I digress). Despite the spirited debate that goes on here, I do really listen to you and Fins. Just because I disagree with your position doesn't mean that I don't listen to it.

You may not like the amount of the damages claimed but you don't need to worry about that. If the courts don't think the amount of the claim is justified they will award a lesser sum.

If this was really just some principaled attempt to right the union, then why demand monetary damages at all? Whenever someone says "It's not about the money, it's the principal of the thing," then it's really just about the money.

While it is true that the counts of the complaint were reduced from 10 to 1, that wasn't because anything was "thrown out". That too is propaganda. What the judge did was determine that all of the counts were esentially the same and could be heard as one instead of ten. He didn't throw them out he just consolidated them into a single DFR complaint. He even went so far as to recommend a "class action" which greatly expands those covered by the evntual outcome.

Talk about propaganda. The judge dismissed the other 9 claims and you ended up with a single DFR claim. He never commented on the actual merit of even that single claim. All he did was agree that the court had jurisdiction and that there was enough reason to look at any evidence the RJDC plaintiffs could come up with. That's it. His recommendation for a class action suit makes sense because if the court does eventually rule in the RJDC's favor, then it really affects all pilots at ASA and CMR, not just the listed plaintiffs. The actual merits of the case (or lack thereof) were never even discussed in the ruling.

Tell me, have you actually read the judge's ruling yourself or are you just repeating what you've been told by those interested in getting this to go away?

I've read the entire lawsuit as well as the judge's ruling.

Before you call that "dismissed" you might take the time to read the judge's opinion.

Again, I've already read the ruling. You're dealing in symantics if you don't like the word dismissed. The fact is, the 1113 process failed on the first try, whatever word you want to use for it. The company has already stated that they are filing an 1113 motion again. I suspect that a deal will be reached before the process works it's way through the court again, but if not, then I doubt the judge will change his mind.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

I just followed the sign that said "busses welcome."

Looking for that furlough job with MARTA? You'll finally get to be incharge!

 

[Midge]

Actually the quote you used was in response to another person.

The quote was to YOU sir. You are antagonizing another poster, by flame baiting his name, and responding to EVERY one of his posts!
Like I said, have a brew, hang out with the lady, get laid, and for the love of all things man, back away from the computer!

 

[Soverytired]

Has the General taken leave of his senses?

I can't believe any self-respecting Delta pilot would cite a COO as trustworthy example of future growth plans for Delta.

I sincerely hope you guys didn't vote in that TA based on "we're gonna fire the CRJ drivers and give you guys more flying soon" promise.

Regionals are cheaper. Way cheaper. They're gonna put the most and the biggest CRJ aircraft they can on as many routes as they can.

Personally, I think Delta is dying a slow death anyway.