Diverted plane blamed on AA FA

[BigMotorToter]

Steveg had it right, once on the line, not much thinking is required. In fact AA omitted all the "SCD" (Subject to Captains Discretion" verbiage out of TWA's policy manual after the buyout. You almost have to ask permission just to go to the lav. at AA. At TWA when if say the galley wasn't stocked and some agent wanted you to take a 4 hour flight with no ice. Well most guys (Captains) just said "nope" I'll wait for the ice, and guess what, the ice showed up and the pax were happy and the F/A's didn't get abused by a bunch of unhappy pax., plus we all were very proactive on making up the time once airborne by using a multitude of tools to trim off some flight time, without asking mommy, I mean dispatch, if we were allowed to, or (and this is a biggie), if you wanted to add a couple thousand pounds of gas because you could see that they didn't add enough due to circumstances only a pilot with decades of experience could see coming, you just told the fueler or the load controller and it was done. No questions asked. Not at AA, you have to ask permission from the dispatcher and give him your reason, as if his butt was sitting in the cockpit and not yours. I flew under the new rules for 2 years before they put me on the street, and I'll tell you what, my brain went numb because they took all the thinking out of the job. Getting laid off was a godsend, because I no longer had to work in the most god awful environment I had ever worked in, (like when one of the AA pilots took a swing at one of our guys in an elevator, missed and hit one of our female F/A's in the face, what a man), plus I was furloughed into a raise with my new co. after the gutting of their latest contract.

Just before I was layed off though, I did see that some of the less arrogant union reps. started listening to some of our guys, and specifically started addressing the Captains authority issue. Hopefully if and when I go back, they will have adopted some of the tried and true policy's that TWA had.

 

[flx757]

How about the sim? Ever had to actually do it working as a crewmember?

As a long time (and current) sim instructor and evaluator, currently working for another major airline operating MD-80s, I have personally conducted this scenario over and over, and at least 6 times this month alone. I would say it's practiced regularly. At least it is at my company. I have also had the occasion to perform this in an actual situation as a working cremember.

I'm not sure why there is such a debate about this. It is a fairly routine maneuver, which any airline pilot should be able to accomplish without a huge amount of effort to recall the procedure from the depths of your knowledge.

 

[BigMotorToter]

I'm not sure why there is such a debate about this. It is a fairly routine maneuver, which any airline pilot should be able to accomplish without a huge amount of effort to recall the procedure from the depths of your knowledge.

flx757,

To me it was not so much the actual maneuver that impressed me, it was the fact that dispatch tried to tell the Captain where to fly, and the Captain did what he thought was the right thing which was to get the airplane on the ground asap. A lesser pilot might have been easily persuaded to go to another and maybe further away airport, which if the bomb were real, could have extended the time to which the pax and crew were subjected to danger. At TWA, it was a Captains Airline, he had the authority to overide everyone when he was on duty and because of this ingrained culture, (I'm willing to bet) was one reason the Captain on this flight wasn't persuaded to go to another airport. The TWA vs. AA stuff is a real issue. I as well as many other TWA pilots have seen and experienced two ideologies in regards to rules and procedures in relation to safety, and coming from one who has operated under both, the TWA methodoloy wins hands down. Hopefully AA will stop the "NIH" (Not invented here) policy and actually listen to some of the TWA pilots, and implement some of our policy's in the name of safety.

 

[flx757]

I understand what you are saying, and I also agree that most Captains, if they really believed they had a course of action that they thought would be absolutely imperative that they follow, they would follow it. When time is of the essence, they would follow it without delay, and answer to it at the appropriate time. I doubt there are many companies, mine included, who would fault a Captain for making that decision, and following through with it. I would like to think that ANY Captain at ANY airline, if he felt there was a course of action that must be followed IMMEDIATELY would do it. If not, then he has no business being in command.

Then there is the other situation when time is NOT a factor, then it would be prudent for the Captain to include any and all resources in making his decision. A Captain who would impose his will without including all available resources would not be someone I would want in command of my aircraft. Again, I repeat that this does not apply to this particular instance, but when time is not an immediate factor. But, even in that situation, after considering all the information he is able to acquire, the decision still rests with the Captain.

Then again, any Captain worth his stripes should have the ability and the backing of the company to do whatever he deems necessary, without question or fear of recourse, when immediate action is required.

Now....I will remind everyone that the sole reason I entered into this discussion was not to debate the culture of TWA vs. AA, or to question this particular Captain's decision or ability. It was to respond to a particular poster's statement that executing a 4000-5000 fpm descent was "Awesome". I reiterate that this is a relatively routine maneuver that is practiced regularly and requires no heroic measures to accomplish. That is the extent of the point I wanted to interject into this discussion, and hence will end it. You all can debate the TWA vs. AA culture without me, since I have never been involved in either, and would have nothing to say on the subject.

 

[cactuspilot]

The Space Shuttle could do that in about 3 min. No Biggie...

 

[TonyC]

A lessor pilot might have been ...

I'm getting confused. Which pilots are doing all this leasing, what are they leasing, and who are these leasing it to?

Better still, what does all this leasing have to do with decision-making, leadership, and flying airplanes?

Originally posted by flx757
Then again, any Captain worth his strips should have ...

OK, now I'm even more confused. When did we start valuing Captains in terms of strips? What kind of strips? No Pest Strips? Power Strips? Strips of Paper? Slow, sensual strips?



Who would have ever thought a fake bomb threat could cause SO much confusion!?!?!?

 

[klhoard]

Geeze

This thread didn't take long to start a urination contest. . . .

 

[flx757]

Hey Tony C,

I'm not sure what your motive is in constantly pointing out spelling errors in others. Maybe it's a form of amusement for you, and if so, I hope you are enjoying yourself. Maybe it's a feeble attempt at humor. Maybe you feel you need to point out your perceived shortcomings in others in order to feel better about yourself. If that's the case, then that's just plain sad. Maybe it's none of the above.

As for me, I could care less. I'm coming up on a year since my heart attack and open heart surgery. I feel good about myself knowing I had a positive attitude going in and coming out in knowing that I would be healthier than I have been since I was in my 20s. And I maintain that positive attitude today, having changed my lifestyle and having lost 80 lbs, am eating right and getting regular exercise. I haven't felt this good about myself in over 20 years. My life couldn't be better. I have a great job as a manager in a major airline's training department, and am surrounded with friends and family. So your jabs have absolutely no effect.. But, if it makes you feel better, fire away. And enjoy yourself. I know I am enjoying mine.

I will continue to feel good about myself, no matter what. I wish you the same

 

[cactuspilot]

Gimme a 6, I had three PUTZ

 

[Dizel8]

"I have the airplane..."

What airplane?

 

[dispatchguy]

If I may interject into the urination match, what was the DXR's reasoning for wanting to go to a different airport?

As a dispatcher, youre there to assist once the E word is declared, PERIOD. Short of a level 6 TS parked directly over the divert field, whereever he (CAP) wants to go, is where he's a gonna go, period!

How hard is that to remember from DX school?

 

[Swede]

Some of you guys amaze me with your company elitism. I've been with AA for 14 years. Done several "crash dives", all for medical. As pointed out, it just isn't too tough. Throttles idle, speedbrake open, get to red line and stay there until time to land.

I've also regularly had Capt's tell dispatch to blow during a divert, when they didn't have the big picture. If the Capt. doesn't like the alternate, it's changed. Getting extra fuel is as tough as calling for it, informing loads and dispatch, and getting the fuel truck to the plane.

BigMotor, with your "BigRatings" list, you have serious issues. Sorry you hate life so much. Lighten up.

 

[80drvr]

If I may interject into the urination match, what was the DXR's reasoning for wanting to go to a different airport?

As a dispatcher, youre there to assist once the E word is declared, PERIOD. Short of a level 6 TS parked directly over the divert field, whereever he (CAP) wants to go, is where he's a gonna go, period!

How hard is that to remember from DX school?

Might have had something to do with AF1 being IVO the primary.

 

[xanderman]

HAHAHA

I'm getting confused. Which pilots are doing all this leasing, what are they leasing, and who are these leasing it to?

Better still, what does all this leasing have to do with decision-making, leadership, and flying airplanes?



OK, now I'm even more confused. When did we start valuing Captains in terms of strips? What kind of strips? No Pest Strips? Power Strips? Strips of Paper? Slow, sensual strips?



Who would have ever thought a fake bomb threat could cause SO much confusion!?!?!?

TonyC you are a funny man!!!!!!!

 

[xanderman]

No biggie

Flx757,
TonyC was just joking around. I don't believe and I certainly am not reading any personal attacks in his post. I though these misspellings were funny too. Nothing personal. Just funnny.
Andy

P.S. glad you are doing well. I can imagine it's no small feat to overcome all you have. Way to go. Maybe guys like you can motivate me to get off my lazy butt...

 

[TonyC]

Hey Tony C,

I'm not sure what your motive is ... Maybe it's a feeble attempt at humor.

That's it. Perhaps I should use more to make that clear.

Sorry to cause you so much heartburn.

 

[TonyC]

"I have the airplane..."

What airplane?

Umm, that would be the airplane that has just been cleared for takeoff, immediately following transfer of aircraft control.

 

[LEROY]

I think TonyC's grammar/spelling patrols are completely justifiable. Yoo cud be Albert Einstein, but if yoo cant spel or puncktuwate, allot of folks on this bord will probbably reed you're post's with a grayne of salt.
Take a minit and prufreed you're post's...it lends some credibility to your thoughts.
And if all else fails, at least use some smilies...
BTW...sorry for the "seguay"

 

[dispatchguy]

Might have had something to do with AF1 being IVO the primary.

I recall seeing that TFR now - tough call -