Diver-driver requirements

[Hand Commander]

Maybe idiot proof....but not moron proof! I've been to some DZ's that they turn on the green light, everybody starts yelling "GO GO GO!" without even looking....and half the time several people land out. I won't exit if I don't think I'll make the planned LZ, regardless of how much people yell at me

Yes! I love it when experienced jumpers land off and after walking back to the dz, proclaim, "what was with that spot? We were in F ing Bolivia!". Then the first question I ask is, "did you look before you got out?" That usually leads to a moment of silence. I would say that the number of times people landed off with me flying and it was entirely my fault would be counted on one hand. I don't intentionally put people off and I pay attention to who's on every load and adjust giving the lights accordingly, but when jumpers exit, I'm assuming they know the score. How's it go? "Assumption is the mother of all......?" GPS has made spotting ridiculously accurate and jumpers pretty much know that the spot will be good. Its a lost art for new students. Its pretty rare but even the GPS gives up occasionally, then its up to some newbie in the back to spot the load for 23 people. Good times. Oh and another favorite of mine is 2 mins before exit, people start asking, 'uh, like what are the winds doing, man?" after they walked past the posted winds aloft for the day on their way out to the plane.:smash:

 

[NW_Pilot]

Not much else to say about it other than it would probably be a good idea to sit in on a student ground school for the jumpers so that you have a pretty good idea of what is going on with the gear that people are wearing in the aircraft you are flying. Also, since you are wearing an emergency parachute, you probably might want to at least jump once, just to get over that scared feeling.

Scary Feeling? Thats all a mental problem! I say bring it on Your going to die some time right?

Do it Now!! So later in life you never say, I wish could have done that!

Remember you only have one life and it’s not a rehearsal very few of us have been given a second chance! So enjoy the one you have because it can be taken from you when you least expect it!

 

[FracCapt]

Here's an excellent opportunity for someone looking to get into the business. I've flown for the folks at N68, they're good people. I think the B90 is probably one of Pauls from CSS though.

I went so Chambersburg years ago, and only a couple times....but had a damn good time there, and never felt that safety was compromised.

As for the KingAir....if it were a Fayard airplane, wouldn't he hire for it directly? I thought the pilots of his airplanes traveled with the airplane, not the DZ's that lease the planes hiring the pilots...?

 

[FracCapt]

Yes! I love it when experienced jumpers land off and after walking back to the dz, proclaim, "what was with that spot? We were in F ing Bolivia!". Then the first question I ask is, "did you look before you got out?" That usually leads to a moment of silence. I would say that the number of times people landed off with me flying and it was entirely my fault would be counted on one hand. I don't intentionally put people off and I pay attention to who's on every load and adjust giving the lights accordingly, but when jumpers exit, I'm assuming they know the score.

Yes, spotting is a lost art. Most large DZ's don't teach anything about spotting. Hell, I started jumping in the days of 180's and 182's with no GPS. We actually used to fly over the DZ at 3k and drop streamers(some called it spotting tape), as well as 6-9k, to get a feel for the REAL winds. Most skydivers these days don't have a clue as to what a streamer is, other than a serious malfunction...but I still have a word with the pilot if they call a bad spot.

On the flip side....as a very experienced pilot, a former jump pilot, and a very experienced jumper.....when the green light goes on, I assume the pilot expects we will make the DZ no problem. Of course, if you have a 10 way RW exiting a Twotter, and you give them the light 10-12 seconds before the spot to facilitate their exit, it's understandable......but when the green light comes on(on any load other than the first of the day), and the first group lands WAY out....there's apparently something wrong with the spot.

Most skydivers these days don't know how to properly check the spot....but whether or not they are able to make the DZ also depends on certain things, like the canopies they are flying. Do you take that into account, as a pilot? If you have a group of RW'ers that are all flying Manta 288's exit first, as opposed to a group of freeflyers flying Xaos 98's....the ability to make the DZ is vastly different for the two. No, of course you don't take that into account....you trust the jumpers to make that determination. Ultimately, it IS their responsibility, but as we've already determined....spotting is a lost art.

As far as I'm concerned, if you turn on the green light and somebody lands off(aside from a low pull or cutaway), it IS your fault. I took that responsibility as a pilot, but I also take that responsibility as a jumper. If I land off, I take full responsibility for it......but then again, I have a lot more experience than many of the jumpers, and I started jumping in a time when spotting was taught, but much easier(spotting for a C182 with 4 jumpers as opposed to a Twotter with 21 jumpers). I know better than to exit before I can make the LZ(I am usually among the first group or two out, and am often the spotter for the load).

The really sad part is when an experienced jumper attempts to have a word with the pilot regarding the spot where they turn the green light on.....the pilot usually has a holier than thou attitude, and refuses to listen....unless they are also an experienced jumper.

 

[Junkflyer]

Read FAR 105 to be aware of the legalities.The feds can hold a pilot responsible for jumpers penetrating clouds. At the DZ I flew at, the jumpers spotted themselves; the spot would vary widely between over the mountains or out over the ocean.

 

[Say Again Over]

Then the first question I ask is, "did you look before you got out?" by Hand Commander

You wouldn't last long at my DZ, GPS spotting where I jump is from 14.5, good luck seeing the ground most days. All the people I jump with are quite capable of spotting, I don't think it's a lost art, I think it's cost inefficient, 8.5 from your local C-182 (WDI's) is much different from 14.5 from a 1500 HP King Air 90 (GPS). Lol.

 

[Hand Commander]

The hardest part of flying jumpers in larger aircraft is learning how to spot based on all the different canopy sizes, formations, and exit orders. If people land out, I take it personally. I immediately call manifest or ask the jumpers when I get down what happened and what needs to change. Most of the places I fly are not allowed to run jump run directly into the wind because of ATC constraints, so I typically flight north/south or west/east and offset into the prevailing wind component. Its pretty incredible what a tenth of a nm on the GPS equates to for jumpers. If the first group out is an 8 way team with a camera flier, the green light comes on early to give them time to set up. If the first group out is a solo or two way, the light comes on a lot closer to the dz. Same with turning the light off. I've put tandems out over 2 miles away on windy days and sometimes it could have been farther. Normally though, if the last guys getting out are experienced jumpers, AFF, or tandem with video, I turn the light off sooner and go around for another pass. I wasn't trying to sound arrogant in the other post, but I do want to make sure jumpers have some accountability for their actions. I take full responsibility for the plane and everything that comes out of it. My advice to anyone getting a jump pilot job is to always ask the jumpers (preferably an experienced one) about the spot, especially after the first load of the day (the test dummies). Be open to suggestions without giving attitude. You're not getting criticized, jumpers just want to be safe. Winds change. What worked in the morning might not be working in the afternoon. Someone else said something about flying every load like a check ride. Great advice. I've flown with guys who have a thousand hours in Otters, but from a pilot's view, they fly it like they have 50. You're most likely not going to do this forever, so why not take the time to work on being smooth, keeping banks shallow, holding a heading, and easing the nerves of some nervous passengers. Clouds are a can of worms. I'm from the Northwest so I've had my share. I'll always go "take a look" if I have room to climb VFR, but on more than one occasion, I've landed with full Otter loads, because the jumpers know better than to punch solid decks and don't want to hose the pilot. If its worth it to you to intentionally drop people through clouds, be my guest, but you never know who's on the ground watching, and you should be prepared for the consequences. I've also had airliners inbound on the arrivals chime in on approach as the controller is pointing us out to them, "they're jumping over there? Its pretty cloudy to be doing that. They need to check they're cloud clearance requirements". Thanks, pal. Ever hear of parallax? tool.

 

[Say Again Over]

It now sounds to me that you are a VERY conscientious jump pilot, might have got the wrong idea from the other post.:0

 

[FracCapt]

The hardest part of flying jumpers in larger aircraft is learning how to spot based on all the different canopy sizes, formations, and exit orders.

My point exactly. When I'm on a freefly jump(first group out) on my Xaos 98, I can make the DZ when somebody on an RW jump on a Spectre 210 may not be able to make it(assuming an upwind jumprun). If I'm in the LAST group out, I may not be able to make it back on my canopy while the guy on the Spectre 210 can. Rear risers only do so much...being able to fly in deep brakes and let the wind push you is great for covering distance downwind, but rear risers(and sometimes front risers) are all you've got for better penetration upwind.

Most of the places I fly are not allowed to run jump run directly into the wind because of ATC constraints, so I typically flight north/south or west/east and offset into the prevailing wind component.

I'm actually a believer in the crosswind jumprun when you have a good sized DZ....it allows more jumpers to get out and make it back before a go-around must be called. Usually it allows the entire load to get out. When the DZ is small, with few outs....then the upwind jumprun is the way to go, but be sure to call a go-around when it becomes at all questionable whether everybody will make it back or not.

If the first group out is an 8 way team with a camera flier, the green light comes on early to give them time to set up.

Don't worry about the camera flyer.....if their worth a dam as a camera flyer they will not be holding up the 8 way in their climbout/count.... Of course, I say this as a camera flyer...

I've put tandems out over 2 miles away on windy days and sometimes it could have been farther. Normally though, if the last guys getting out are experienced jumpers, AFF, or tandem with video, I turn the light off sooner and go around for another pass.

The VIDEO part is the thing that most pilots don't think about....they think that since tandems pull at 5.5k or so that they can make it back from a 2 mile spot easily....they don't consider the camera flyer that waits until 3.5k or lower to pull(to be able to catch the deployment on video, then track away from UNDER the tandem that could have a cutaway). Good on ya for thinking about the video flyers.

I wasn't trying to sound arrogant in the other post, but I do want to make sure jumpers have some accountability for their actions. I take full responsibility for the plane and everything that comes out of it. My advice to anyone getting a jump pilot job is to always ask the jumpers (preferably an experienced one) about the spot, especially after the first load of the day (the test dummies). Be open to suggestions without giving attitude. You're not getting criticized, jumpers just want to be safe.

Glad you clarified....because you did sound like you had a holier than thou attitude in your previous post. Good advice for future jumper dumpers. Jumpers are not(with very few exceptions) out to prove anything, just looking out for their own, and all the other jumpers, safety.

I've flown with guys who have a thousand hours in Otters, but from a pilot's view, they fly it like they have 50. You're most likely not going to do this forever, so why not take the time to work on being smooth, keeping banks shallow, holding a heading, and easing the nerves of some nervous passengers.

I resemble that remark! Yea, I fly different when it's a load of experienced jumpers versus a bunch of tandems/students. A bunch of experienced jumpers enjoy a bit of a ride.....tandems/students just want a relaxing ride, since they're already really nervous.

Of course....there's always the trick where you put an experienced pilot in the right seat, and wear a sport rig while you're in the left seat....then when you get up to altitude you(as the "pilot") jump up, walk back to the door, open it, and jump out....all the while with a worried look on your face. It really freaks out anybody that doesn't know the guy in the right seat is an experienced pilot. I almost got fired for doing that....TWICE!