Disregarding the FARs?

[bigD]

I was talking to a CFI a couple of days ago, and we had a discussion about IFR currency. He basically said that he doesn't really worry about being a few months out of currency if he's just filing IFR to climb through a high, thin, overcast layer. He mentioned that if he planned on doing any actual approaches in IMC, he'd make sure he was current and safe, but when flying through a thin layer for just a minute or two - it was no big deal. He mentioned that he files any time he flies anywhere, so he's always current with working "in the system", but because the weather usually isn't poor enough to require an approach, he usually falls out of currency. The guy isn't a current CFI, and is an older gentleman who owns a plane and flies for fun.

To be honest with you - this kind of surprised me. Maybe I'm just naive though and many pilots bend the rules a little. I haven't been around aviation as long as many of you guys (and gals!) have. So is this sort of thing at all typical? I spend all my flying time at a school because I rent, so I'm usually around students that are too new and scared to start disregarding regs!

 

[Clearsky]

I was surprised to hear one of my old CFIs say that he felt much less safe with your average Private pilot than students. He said they get very rusty, lax, and forget the rules. So, your note above doesn't surprise me.

 

[bulldog]

student vs pvt plt

I have to disagree. I believe the determining factor in safety and currency for private pilots or student pilots has more to do with integrity than anything else. One of my first students was close to solo when he decided it would be ok to take a friend for a spin in the pattern. Fortunately, another cfi spotted him and stopped him. I called the local FSDO who told me we should have let him fly then they could violated him. As it was he had only started the engine and hadn't moved yet. After a lengthy discussion with him I decided not to fly with him any longer. He simply lacked the respect and integrity, in my humble opinion, to be a competent, safe pilot.

Bulldog

 

[AV1ATRX]

I have also met some people who admit to doing things like that, or worse. When I was a new(er) pilot, I just assumed that everybody played by the rules. But now that I've been exposed to the wonderful world of flying for a living, I have been amazed by the complete lack of respect for the FAR's and safety that a lot of pilots have. It's very unsettling to know that these people are flying around with us every day.

What do you say when somebody starts to brag about some way they have broken regs? I feel a responsibility as a CFII to correct them, but when they have many more thousands of hours than I do, I admit that I'm hesitant to criticize them. I know this is something I'll need to work out before I make it to an airline cockpit, and I actually lay awake at night thinking about this stuff.

I have lost a lot of respect for the industry, especially the charter world, because of bad attitudes about regs. Charter and instructing are the only areas I have experience in, so I'm hoping that the airlines or fractionals are different. Of course, at my hours, I have years before I need to worry about that...

I'm interested to see what other people have to say about this topic.

 

[bigD]

Yeah, the guy I spoke to flew charter for awhile, and has quite a bit of time. I did ask him if he ever worried about being ramp checked, and he told me that in 30 years of flying, he had been ramp checked only three times, and in none of those cases did the inspector check his logbook for currency. He added that he's retired now anyway, so in the off chance that he did get busted, the reprecussions would be too small to worry about it.

I'm not necessarily stepping onto a soapbox here - I'm more curious than anything about how much this kind of thing happens. It sounds like it does more than I figured it did.

 

[tk855]

I don't mean to sound like an advocate for the FAA, but this situation can be summed up with 2 words....Hazardous Attitudes!!

People like this usually end up in an ugly situation that they are unable to get out of. If they are lucky they will only hurt themselves, but most of the time they end up hurting other people in addition to themselves.

I look at this situation this way: if you can't do it right, why do it at all?

tk

 

[Clearsky]

I think I'm in agreement but with an additional twist...You can become unsafe simply by not flying often. You can still follow the rules or think you are following the rules, so, I'm not sure it's just an integrity issue. This is a little extreme but Jimmy Dolittle stopped flying because he had a set number of hours each month that he had to put in. When he couldn't fly that much he quit. I know from personal experience that you become much less safe simply but not flying on a regular basis. It's unfortunate that flying is becoming more and more expensive. Your integrity issue does seem to apply to this charter pilot that is mentioned. I don't want to pull this off topic.

There are many private pilots out there that would never break the rules intentionally but are still unsafe due to lack of regular flying. The FAA rules allow a pilot to be legal but unsafe. I'm not saying we need more rules however.

 

[414Flyer]

Re: student vs pvt plt

Fortunately, another cfi spotted him and stopped him. I called the local FSDO who told me we should have let him fly then they could violated him.

Bulldog

That was the reasoning the Fargo FSDO inspector used when letting the northwest flight take off.

Gee I always thought there FAA was there for safety, not just to bust people for the sake of doing so.

Reminds me of the police. If they really wanted to stop speeding, they would not hide in inconspicous places, but would be as visible as possible in order.

I did know of someone back in Texas who took some of his friends flying in a C-172RG..However he was still a student and not even checked out in that plane. The person had far more money than sense.

 

[bulldog]

currency

I agree with clearsky on the currency issue. At one point I got away from flying for a while and was flying just enough to stay legal. It became obvious that I needed some refresher time with a CFI. I went up a couple times with one and spent some time on the ground reviewing charts and regs. The difference it made was surprising. and reassuring. I just wish everyone had the time, money, and integrity to do that. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Bulldog

 

[bulldog]

414flyer

That thought ran through my head also. At the time I had been a CFI for about 5 months and was pretty naive. I have to admit I was just happy to not be in some sort of trouble myself since it was my student. It never amazes me that the rules can be set up in such a manner so as to cause exactly what they're trying to prevent.

Bulldog

 

[TurboS7]

Part 121 you learn how to play the game, get the job done, serve the customer, and keep everything legal. That is your job as a captain, no compromise.

 

[avbug]

What is safe is not necessarily legal.

What is legal is not necessarily safe.

A professional will ensure that the flight is both legal AND safe, or it doesn't go.

The exceptions are some working jobs, where in many cases the law "doesn't" apply...you're there to get a job done, and the FAA doesn't get in the way. I've worked a number of these jobs, and in most cases, you're interested in getting the job done first, safety a close second, and the legalities...well...

 

[V1 cuts R fun]

the problem with old timers is they have been around so long, and they are still alive, they say, oh well, im me, i can do it. Screw the FAR's

Anyways, those regs are written in blood in most cases. It's not like the faa just woke up and decided to give us IFR minimums just to create power. Its cause too many people died due to lack of currency. If its VFR out there in most cases and he doesn't keep IFR current due to WX, how hard is it for him to get another safety pilot, grab some foggles or a hood and go do his approaches, holding, tracking, intercepting, etc...it takes about 1 hour ever 6 months.... People like that really should just get out of the game before they get some hurt

 

[414Flyer]

the problem with old timers is they have been around so long, and they are still alive, they say, oh well, im me, i can do it. Screw the FAR's

Anyways, those regs are written in blood in most cases. It's not like the faa just woke up and decided to give us IFR minimums just to create power. Its cause too many people died due to lack of currency. If its VFR out there in most cases and he doesn't keep IFR current due to WX, how hard is it for him to get another safety pilot, grab some foggles or a hood and go do his approaches, holding, tracking, intercepting, etc...it takes about 1 hour ever 6 months.... People like that really should just get out of the game before they get some hurt

Thats about what happened in Hawaii in 1999, when a tour flight in a Navajo crashed into Mauna Loa.

The pilot had quite a few hours, and had been flying in Hawaii for a number of years, doing tour flights and I think some airline flights too. He would have been an "old timer", and on his last flight of the day, on the way back to Kona, decided to fly in the clouds between Mauna Loa and Mauna Kea to save a few minutes, rather than go around either of those and cost a few minutes.

He probably thought he knew exactly where he was and how he could just shoot thru the clouds between the two mountains.

He took himself and 9 passengers with him into the side of mauna loa.

 

[TurboS7]

You have to be patient to fly by the regs. We went to KEF a little over a month ago. The weather was forecast to be below our landing minimums. We got a Kavorous forecast that showed it right at our minima. We couldn't use KEF as our ETOPS alternate so we had to use BIAR which was forecast to be CAVU. The problem is that it is only good dry not wet unless you have a real light payload. We took off 6 hours later we arrived at KEF. On decent the weather was reported as OXO with an RVR of 100m with the wind blowing across the runway at 25kts. I had taken full fuel so we arrived at TOD with 7300Kilos. On the way we had figured that our BINGO fuel would be 3800kilos with immediate diversion to BIAR-still CAVU. We decended to 12000 and held at the outer marker and advised that we would need 550m crossing the FAF on the ILS 20 for our legal vis. We held for 10 minutes and approach advised us that the vis was up to 300m. We all agreed to decend for the approach with the option of holding right at the marker if we didn't have the required vis. :2 miles before the FAF approach advised us that we had 600m with a 20 knt crosswind. We continued the approach, at minimums we saw the ALS continued down to 100 feet and saw the red terminating bars. We continued for a landing at 1000 feet at the fixed distance marker. The challenge was getting to the ramp. You must have an out and you must have a plan. Try the approach in these conditions with a Flight sim 2000 or whatever, it will be fun. Airport identifier is BIKF. The weather there is very nasty sometimes with winds up to 70kts. You just do your job and get it done safely, that is the bottom line.