Dismissed from previous employer, interesting scenario for you

[OrphicSeth]

The "Dismissed from previous employer" question

For some reason I posted this on the regional board by mistake, sorry for the reprint here, where I originally meant it to be.

How would you answer this question on an online application? (Edit: The "Have you ever been dismissed or asked to resign by a previous employer, and why?" question).

Here's an interesting scenario to keep in mind:

You're an employee/fueler at an FBO you ask for and get, 3 days off to volunteer at a local organization. That night of the first day off, the supervisor who granted the time calls and leaves a message: Come to work tomorrow or you'll be out of a job. You either ignore the message (he has bluffed before in the past) or you don't get the message until its too late. Hoping to save your job, you show on your next scheduled day of work, only to find a supervisor who tells you (happily) to get your stuff and leave, but proceeds to say, "I didn't have a problem with your work ethic," and "Hindsight is 20/20, but you should have lied to me and called in sick instead even though I knew what you were doing." Crushed at realizing that honesty can bite you in the ass, you leave, accept it as a golden boot, and get all your instructor ratings and start a career.

Then you bump into that thorny question on an online application, "have you ever been dismissed from a job?"

Let's say you pressed yes and explained yourself because you hate lying, what are the chances of getting a call to an interview?

If you press no because the message gave you an ultimatum, and you decided to not show. Therefor, you quit. The supervisor thinks he fired you however, and you could get canned for lying.

What if you pressed no, and expained and disclosed the situation at the interview, maybe that would work?



Anyway, any thoughts?

 

[Metro752]

Didn't the guy already say you have the day off?

Why would he call you back and tell you to show up if he said you had the day off?

That's garbage.

 

[bobbysamd]

Terminations

If there is a space in the app to provide an explanation, I would simply write, "To be discussed at the interview." At that time, you can tell your story. It would help to bring an LOR from the place if you can get one.

Theoretically, pilots who have been terminated get interviews and jobs - if they can get past the moronic, coneheaded HR types who review their apps. Sadly, because there are so many perfect people out there and the airlines prefer perfect people, it's far easier for HR to bring them in instead of taking a chance and giving a person a chance to tell his/her story.

Finally, as Groucho Marx might put it, being told you should have lied and called in sick is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You don't lie to an employer - you don't want to be known as a liar - even though employers habitually lie to their employees.

Good luck with your job search.

 

[BackSoon05]

It's sad that a job of relatively low import (relative to your career) can have such a large impact. It's even sadder that questionable policies can affect you the way they do.

IF you always tell the truth (my suggestion) you might not get that one interview, but you will get an interview. And if you get the opportunity to explain yourself, take it. Be careful about sounding too defensive, even if you were not at all at fault. Don't second guess yourself either...You made a decision...which you thought was right....and it cost you your job. You WILL face these decisions online as a pilot, and forgetting the HR folks, the line pilots will appreciate the fact that you stand behind your decisions.

I know people who have been fired, quit, had accidents/incidents, had DUI's, DWI's, even failed drug tests (yes, drug tests, not alcohol, and NOT preemployment) at airlines and before the airlines, and with full disclosure these folks all are currently flying, some for majors right now. It is a MYTH that you have to be perfect. I, personally, would think twice before hiring the perfect candidate. I would wonder when his faults were going to show. I personally don't know a pilot that isn't flawed.

I don't know anyone that LOST their job after full disclosure for background information. That cannot be said for those folks who lied on the application. I hear stories all the time. I guarantee that in a 10 year background check it will come out.

The further you career goes along the easier these mistakes are for HR to take. If it was last year, maybe, maybe not. 6 years ago, its no longer an issue. By the time you get to a major interview it will be a non-issue in the interview.

Good luck. Trust me, I know how a "colorful" application looks when sending it out. It's frustrating and you don't think anyone is going to accept you. It will happen however. Just have patience.

 

[350DRIVER]

Simple, explain the situation as you have done here both on the application and in the actual interview. You have nothing to be concerned about since you were initially granted those days off. It is when you are not honest, upfront, and sincere that will get you into trouble. This would be a no-brainer if it were I. As long as you have proper justification then all will be in your favor.

good luck,

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[OrphicSeth]

Thanks for the replies, it certainly is an interesting situation. In 8 months working there, never late, never missed a day of work, never called in sick, never asked for a day off. Just a two bit manager in a two bit operation trying to prove to the rest that he has the "power". Dissapointing, because we got along, I thought. It will be wierd explaining to HR the situation, because it sounds so unbelievable. This was two years ago, thankfully it was a non-pilot job.

One explanation that I can think of (this is only my personal speculation) was that perhaps he was under pressure from higher-ups in the company... he had one of my co-workers work an extra day and he got overtime. He may have gotten heat for letting me take 3 days off, and he wouldn't have had to explain himself so much if I had called in sick. So he contrived this story that I didn't show after he called me to come in, and he was able to vindicate himself to his bosses. That's the most rational explanation I can imagine, in a very irrational company.

Be careful about sounding too defensive

I know about this, I can't go in there spouting that I had nothing to do with it. I was thinking maybe I could go the "I could have communicated with the supervisor after recieving the message to clear up the situation" line in order to explain what I learned.

Trust me, I know how a "colorful" application looks when sending it out. It's frustrating and you don't think anyone is going to accept you.

Boy, you said it.

Thank you all. OS

 

[Ihaveflown]

Check your PM's.

 

[OrphicSeth]

......

 

[Ihaveflown]

Now your PM option is configured. Check it now.

 

[TexaSWA]

If there is a space in the app to provide an explanation, I would simply write, "To be discussed at the interview." QUOTE]

Dont do that. Just explain what happened in that space.

 

[bobbysamd]

If there is a space in the app to provide an explanation, I would simply write, "To be discussed at the interview."

Dont do that. Just explain what happened in that space.

Putting it in writing does bad things. (1) It gives them a sure excuse to reject you; (2) They might infer incorrect things by trying to read between the lines; (3) For reasons (1) and (2), you stand a better chance by explaining the circumstances to them face-to-face, where they can ask questions and you can elaborate further as necessary.

Putting it in writing etches it in stone (bad metaphors, sorry).

 

[Ihaveflown]

For some reason or another your Private Message option was not available when I tried earlier.

Nevertheless, I am now able to say what I wanted to relay to you earlier.

I would not put much worry into you dismissal from your line job. From what I have read so far, most of the replies have said the same:
1: time erases the past
2: HONESTY is always the best policy.

Honesty doesn't always guarantee the best possible outcome or for that matter the fair outcome. Especially in aviation and corporate America.


I say this because I have experienced this in this so called "Corporate Aviation America" career that I chose. I worked for a well known Lear operating fractional based in Dallas. I was there for four years and three months with no repremand or remedial training or warnings in my file. This was told to me by the chief pilot on the day of my termination. I had been a Captain for this company for three years and five months on two different types of aircraft. I had a 99% demo sign on rate. That's perspective buyers who fly to evaluate if they want to buy into the program. I was the highest in the company.

Because of ambient conditions and aircraft limitations I was unable to safely perform a trip that on most days would not have any question as to the ability to accomplish. After explaining to the passengers what we (the First Officer and I) were required to do by Regulations and Limitations concerning passenger seating arrangement and baggage due to weight and balance, we performed the trip with two legs with no problems, mishaps, or most importantly disregard to safety. The lead passenger, who was asleep on the last leg, stated to my chief pilot that I was dangerous and that he feared for his life. Mind you that my former company was in a time of survival, but that gives no excuse for their ineptitude in their handling of this complaint. I was fired the following day after flying another live leg. I asked to prove my weight and balance which was denied. I asked if they had confronted the First Officer, unanswered. I asked if they even reviewed the CVR. Again, unanswered. I tried twice to tell the chief pilot and arbitrary witness the events of the trip only to be interrupted and never to finish my recollection of the trip. I later found out that this lead passenger was a close friend to the newly appointed president of this fractional company. I also knew for some time that some "owners" had figured out if they complained to owner services about anything that they would get free time on their account. Depending on the severity of the complaint meant how much time would be awarded. These are facts. Not just a disgruntled pilot blowing off steam.

I was hired by another fractional one month to the day later. I worked there for one year and five months before moving on to another job that paid much better.

My point is this. And I hope that you can visualize through my personal experience, that this is a cut throat type of career. Was I asked in both interviews since my termination what was the reason? Yes, I was asked. I answered as honestly and as positively as I could. I quote myself "I did not and would not compromise safety in order to perform a trip with passengers. I worked for this company for four years and three months with total confidence from management in my abilities as a captain in performing my duties." That is no lie.

I found out that as small as aviation is as a community word gets around about how an operator is toward its employees. If you never hear anything, then usually it is a good thing. Face it, pilots usually talk about the negative more than the positive. We have more time between take off and landing to think. As humans we think first about what bothers us. you can take it from there.

Well, I am flying a Lear 60 again as a Captain and getting paid more than I was as a Captain for that Fractional that terminated me. Just remember, this is a part of corporate America. If a person high enough in stature doesn't like you hair cut, they may make life hard for you. In more ways than one.

Remember, stay positive. Tell the truth. And be assertive. The job that you interview for today may not hire you. The job you interview for next week will. And, it's a better job too. A smart person can tell what really happened just by listening to how you tell your past.

Feel free to PM me back.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Didn't the guy already say you have the day off?

Why would he call you back and tell you to show up if he said you had the day off?

That's garbage.

And your point is? That is our relationship with scheduling at my "airline."

That is what makes this question a difficult one. Most airlines expect to be able to call you at 2am and junior man you on your off days. Over Christmas my airline was so desperate that they drug they instructors out to fly....

Someone else made the point that "Pilots get fired, management moves on to other opportunities." Just part of this screwed up business.

 

[bobbysamd]

I asked to prove my weight and balance which was denied. I asked if they had confronted the First Officer, unanswered. I asked if they even reviewed the CVR. Again, unanswered. I tried twice to tell the chief pilot and arbitrary witness the events of the trip only to be interrupted and never to finish my recollection of the trip. I later found out that this lead passenger was a close friend to the newly appointed president of this fractional company. I also knew for some time that some "owners" had figured out if they complained to owner services about anything that they would get free time on their account. Depending on the severity of the complaint meant how much time would be awarded. These are facts. Not just a disgruntled pilot blowing off steam . . . .

My experience is that one never gets to present his/her side of the story during an aviation termination meeting. You were hosed. Hope things are working out for you.

 

[pilotyip]

As long as it is not a pattern of irresponsibility should not be a big deal. Everyone is allowed a mulligan in his or her career.

 

[bobbysamd]

At least we can agree on something, Yip

As long as it is not a pattern of irresponsibility should not be a big deal. Everyone is allowed a mulligan in his or her career.

Of course they are. If you haven't misstepped at least once in your life you haven't really lived. The sad thing is there are so many saints out there and it's the path of least resistance to hire a saint. So, H.R. never really gives a person who has made mistakes who might turn out to be a better employee a chance to give his/her side of the story.

 

[avbug]

I was interviewed by the lead in a program in a particular agency. During the course of the the interview, he asked if I had any certificate revocations or FAA violations. I said no, but admitted that I had two letters of investigation at the time, from two different employers. I showed him the letters, as well as letters from the regional chief counsel dismissing the matter (as I was exhonerrated).

The individual doing the interview considered that for a moment, and then said he didn't think he could use me, as they seldom took people who had less than three FAA violations. I ended up taking the qualification and going to work anyway...but different strokes for different...strokes.

A particular company for whom I flew had experienced finance problems. The money was there, but they weren't always good about paying for things. I was flying, and serving as their director of maintenance. I had trouble on occasion obtaining everything I required to do my job. At length after one particular incident, I told the company that if this happened again, they could consider tonight my official notice of resignation. I told them I wouldn't provide another warning.

Two months later my paycheck bounced. I called the company accountant, who became beligerent and tried to deny that it bounced. In a forceful and direct manner, I communicated my displeasure at the situation to the accountant by telephone, and reminded her of my prior resignation. That evening, the general manager for the operation arrived with my final check. I did get my check, but we parted ways then and there.

Today, if you ask me if I was fired, I'll tell you no. If you ask the company, the company will probably tell you no, for legal reasons. My job ended that night with the arrival of the final paycheck, but I can honestly say I had quit two months before, as I had resigned. If someone asks me why I left, my answer is simple; my paycheck bounced. Error or no, didn't get the money in the bank on time, whatever, I don't care...the paycheck bounced. Other bigger issues certainly existed with respect to the way things were run, and it was those issues over which I resigned. However, depending on one's perspective, one could call it a termination...I didn't leave that night, the company told me I was leaving. Just two months after I resigned.

How you view prior separations plays a big part in how your employer will view the separation. Find out what your former employer will say about you. Many employers, even at termination, will write for you a good letter of recommendation. If you can secure a letter, you're in good shape regardless of the circumstances of separation. Here's an important secret...if your boss fired you, get someone else there to write the letter. Get it on company letter head.

I don't want this to be a novel, but...I went to work for a corporate department as a "co-captain" (a ridiculous term, in my opinion), and as Director of Maintenance. Prior to my arrival, a series of expensive events had occured that left doubt as to the future of the flight department in the minds of the board of directors. When the maintenance was outsourced and contract flying was done instead of a full time crew, I was let go. I was given an hour's notice, on the last day of the pay period, and told to have my tools out the next day.

Three weeks later I was hired to fly a learjet. However, during the ensuing background check, I was called into the chief pilot's office. He showed me a letter returned from the corporate department. It said I was let go and that I would not be hired again. Of course not, there was no position to hire into. I explained that, but he was dubious. However, I had in my posession a glowing letter of recommendation by the chief pilot, on company letterhead. I gave that to my new chief pilot, who put a copy in my file. I then called my former employer and told him where I was, and what I was doing, and asked if he could straighten the matter out. He asked me to hand the phone to my new chief pilot, which I did, right in his office. Matter resolved.

In this case, you weren't let go from a flying position, but a line position. You might see about getting a letter from someone else there. From your description, your boss might even sign it. It's a starting point. Remember that how you view your past and how you explain it, and I hate to say it because it sounds crass, but how you spin it, makes all the difference to your new employer. Don't lie, be honest, but remember that there's a big difference between telling a new employer that you left your last employer beause your "position was eliminated," vs. telling your new employer that you were kicked out because they didn't want you any more.

As for the flexjet issue...sorry to hear about it, but it's not far from some other things I've heard. I'd certainly still strive to obtain recommendations from those in the firm who are friendly to you, even though you have a good job now. Having good letters in your home file can't hurt.

 

[350DRIVER]

Do not buy into the false notion that is acceptable to leave something like this off of the application thinking you can just explain it at a later point in time during the actual interview process. Writing down "to be explained at the interview" I don't think is going to produce overly positive results. It is much better to be straight forward, honest, and up front with them from the get go. If you hide something, keep required and/or requested information off of the application then you are just asking for problems. If they ask you to be specific and want questions answered then and there on the application then by all means do so, later at the interview should not be viewed as an option. It also shows human resources that you understand how to follow directions on properly filling out the application. Very good advice about the LOR's, try and obtain atleast a few from those who have flown with you at that company.

Good luck to you, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over this one.

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[OrphicSeth]

Great replies and interesting discussion throughout!

Thank you to all who participated!

OS