Dishonesty at Endeavor?

[1.3XVso]

If I had voted no all of this would have been fixed? By voting "no" a time warp would have revealed itself and changed every bad decision Phil made getting us to BK? You try to reconcile every wrong turn this company has made into a referendum on the concessionary contract vote. You convince anyone yet? Have you convinced yourself?

As Morpheus said, "Welcome to the real world, Neo." When you are in a BK you will get paycuts, as well as everyone else, the MX, FA's, lessors, Hotels (well they get nothing), vendors for software and hardware. If you haven't got the airplanes/engines you haven't got an airline, and those lessors will be taking cuts just like us. Pilots could be more important in the process and better compensated if we unionized like a skilled workforce, but we don't. 90% of pilots don't care, and that's an overwhelming majority. You got outvoted by 85%, and you only say you voted NO. You can say a lot of crap online. I think it's more likely you voted yes and are still embarrassed by it, so you over compensate online by screaming at public yes voters.

You're always good for a laugh, even if you are an angry crybaby. It's nonsense like yours ("just say no to the first offer") that got Pinnacle parked by the NMB. It wasn't a conspiracy by the NMB and the company so they could buy Mesaba, it was because you sabotage good faith negotiations, and you and your ilk are unreasonable children.



Did I say 100% should be hired? Of course not, that would be stupid to think and stupid to say, it's also insulting to suggest that I think that. I am forced to assume you aren't trying to be insulting, perhaps you are confused.

I don't know of any instance of an SSP in history so I don't know what the number "should be". I do know it is very likely that the SSP won't reach me and I don't have anything invested in the SSP. The part that bothers me and a lot of people at Endeavor is the SSP was suppose to be a non monetary benefit to make up the cuts we were taking in BK. That benefit is unfairly being withheld because Delta can't attract pilots here.

/History review
Keep in mind this was late in the game after we got the NY courts to deny Pinnacle's first ask (sub Go-Jet wages), and Pinnacle was told they either had to offer more money to the pilots or negotiate in good faith. To date, Pinnacle hadn't negotiated at all, so we couldn't get them in trouble with the courts for negotiating in bad faith, but the judge warned Pinnacle he was wise to the tactic. There was a lot of movement on the company's side all at once after that court denial. /end history review

I know it seems like I'm going off on a tangent but bear with me. The union and the company sat down after court and knocked together this concessionary deal which is a lot better than "the ask". Part of the deal revolved around using future hiring possibilities as leverage. The SSP was tossed around hotly by Delta (who was not our owner yet). However Pinnacle and Delta appeared to be above the board with their boasting of the program and a judgement call was made- that later on turned out to be wrong- to accept the offer. Our DO, a guy I respected very much, was told by Delta this would be a simple sit down to get to know the pilot. Another Delta manager that is now our CEO told us that any regional pilot would kill for the SSP we had. Promises don't guarantee results but watch this.

I know I'm losing you but stay with me. Chronologically this has been our course of events.

(Summer)
Union: we are losing a lot of pilots.

Guum-ball: (redacted from all pilot conference call) if any of you want to go to Delta, this is going to be the way going forward. Everyone wants this SSP. We don't want to furlough, people leaving is ok.

(Fall)
First couple SSP interviews end with a 85% yes from the HR people, the big gamble seems to have paid off.

Guum-ball: why hasn't the exodus slowed?

Union: Pay, there's no -200 soon, you lied and the SSP isn't going to available for downgraded captains.

Guum-ball: *public message* We may sort of kind of keep a couple -200's, maybe even 100 of them, *wink wink*.

SSP interviews continue, something like 75% thumbs up. Big gamble paid off. But wait!

First attempt at hiring goes poorly, very poorly. Second attempt is worse.

Guum-ball: Alright we need to get some signon bonuses for the new hires.

Union: Absolutely. Get rid of the concessionary LOA, resume the JCBA.

Guum-ball: Not a chance.

Union: OK. That's our offer.

(now'ish)

Third attempt is bleak at best, classes are suppose to start in January and we have no hope of getting the original 20 in the door. 150 apps, 50 were interviewable, 40 wanted (estimate), 20 actually said yes, now 6 think they'll make it to the class. We'll get 2-4 I'm guessing.

SSP interviews... 20%, 10%, LCA's with no failures and guys we'd all bend over backwards for can't get the nod.

The SSP interviewees aren't, judging from recent events, being given a fair interview anymore. Maybe it's better to say they won't be getting a nod anymore because we have a staffing problem. We have staffing problems, and management has given up on trying to fix them, they have said they don't know what they'll do, so Delta is fixing the problem for them. If fewer move up, fewer to restaff. We'll just park -200's faster.

Apparently 65-85% was ok for a while Xray. The dropoff in the yes's was SO quick that Guum-ball has to change sales tactics to the average instead of the actual numbers. One week, "We are proud 75% of the interviewers were hired this week". This week, "Good Lord guys, the average yes is 48% of all the people interviews so far. That's 48 above 0%, so when you look at it that way it's still a great deal." As interviews resume that average will continue to shrink, and that's my point. At some point that number will be numerically similar to the 20% and I'm curious how Guumy-ball will sell the SSP next.

I'm not going to pretend that's giving the interviewers a fair shake. You may pretend if you like. Some of those guys got time off without pay for the interview, so not only did you go to the interview sabotaged from the start but it costs you money on your paycheck. YOU may find that reasonable, but honestly we don't make much any more and every dollar helps. It appears the grumpy asses that didn't trust the company's offer of the SSP (who also voted yes to the concessions) were right after all.

If that makes you sleep well at night have at it hoss. Im sure you put your kids to sleep as well with that fairy tale. Loser.

I know that we could have gotten a better TA so I voted NO. Instead 85% caved in like a bunch of kitties.

 

[jynxyjericho]

If that makes you sleep well at night have at it hoss. Im sure you put your kids to sleep as well with that fairy tale. Loser.

I know that we could have gotten a better TA so I voted NO. Instead 85% caved in like a bunch of kitties.

You know jack, and no problems sleeping over here.

In any pilot group you will have an unreasonable minority, those who live in a world of fairy tales. Fairy tales in which there was no bankruptcy, Colgan pilots killed the company on their own, and BK judges can't force a contract onto you.

No matter how much you balk and bray and bray at facts, it won't change them.

 

[Flyer1015]

/History review
Keep in mind this was late in the game after we got the NY courts to deny Pinnacle's first ask (sub Go-Jet wages), and Pinnacle was told they either had to offer more money to the pilots or negotiate in good faith. To date, Pinnacle hadn't negotiated at all, so we couldn't get them in trouble with the courts for negotiating in bad faith, but the judge warned Pinnacle he was wise to the tactic. There was a lot of movement on the company's side all at once after that court denial. /end history review

/History review
9E ALPA: We will hold pickets against 9E management for their tactics

XJ (and then 9L) ALPA: Ignore the 9E children, let us professionals teach them how it's done. We will not picket with 9E.
/End history review

On an unrelated note how can any of those 80-100 rumors be true when the Delta PWA restricts the number of 50 seaters to a total of 125 in the DCI system. Pretty sure that SkyWest secured a bunch of 50 seater flying to continue with Delta which counts towards the 125 cap.

 

[jynxyjericho]

/History review
9E ALPA: We will hold pickets against 9E management for their tactics

XJ (and then 9L) ALPA: Ignore the 9E children, let us professionals teach them how it's done. We will not picket with 9E.
/End history review

On an unrelated note how can any of those 80-100 rumors be true when the Delta PWA restricts the number of 50 seaters to a total of 125 in the DCI system. Pretty sure that SkyWest secured a bunch of 50 seater flying to continue with Delta which counts towards the 125 cap.

Ive flown with the guy that organized those pickets and he made it clear those pickets were done to say "screw you Nagel, we act irrationally if we want to". Unity- as long as 9E was in the drivers seat. Yet another poisonous attitude that held up all the way through the SLI, and it defeated the pilot group there too. While the picket started off as a referendum, in the end it had nothing to do with current negotiations. No ALPA support, no advertisement, no communication from national, and the last one at JFK was cancelled because the chair said he finally got the message from national and Delta Local. He said he was glad he cancelled the last one because not many were showing up and he had made his point that Pinnacle pilots were unhappy with the negotiations. It wasnt about speeding them up or changing the direction, it was about Pinnacle PTSD and needing an outlet.

The 9E PTSD has mostly evaporated due to attrition, leadership change, and time healing up old wounds.

Also, what rumor are you talking about? There is a message out saying nothing that pilots have interpreted to mean the -200s are saved. The company said jack in the memo.

 

[redflyer65]

First year was $30/hr, not sure after that, but most guys were coming up with about 6 years to get back and past what they would have staying put.

First year DC-9 - $30, Second year - $57, Third - $69.


So it could be tough making around 70/hr on a much farther advanced plane than taking the leap to a plane that was made in the mid-60's. Being a checkairman could account for another $30/hr.

People have laid awake at night trying to make those kind of decisions. The retirement and profit sharing potential at a major has to be considered. But in the end, it's a personal decision that has many different angles and can get very complicated.

 

[Chris9702l]

I think there were quite a few guys that were lifers before the paycuts that now see that they would now only take one or two years hit before making more again at the majors. Their attitudes, employment records, logbooks, ect. bear those thoughts out. They are now either kicking themselves for voting yes, passing on the flow, or both.

I don't think so. There were 3 guys who just recently bypassed the flow. They may have there reasons (granted, all 3 are around 55 years old) but it still doesn't make sense to me. Go to class right now, suffer a little pay cut and reserve for a year and you'll get right back to where you are in the second year. Hiring numbers keep going up, there is gonna be massive movement. And the rest of your 8 years at a major is gonna be gravy. They have been here through many bankruptcies and mergers and a big uncertain future for the next 10 years but still they stay. The stability of Delta more than makes up for the pay cut. But everyone has to make their own decisions.
I just feel for the couple of guys who were right below the 108 cutoff point. Out of the 108 grandfathered flows I bet only about 90 some probably took it.

 

[DoinTime]

So in one year at delta you go from new hire in training to senior line holder with all weekends, holidays and special events off? Cherry picking the best trips for yourself? Living in domicile?

That must be some pretty amazing stuff you're smoking.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ive flown with the guy that organized those pickets and he made it clear those pickets were done to say "screw you Nagel, we act irrationally if we want to". Unity- as long as 9E was in the drivers seat. Yet another poisonous attitude that held up all the way through the SLI, and it defeated the pilot group there too. While the picket started off as a referendum, in the end it had nothing to do with current negotiations. No ALPA support, no advertisement, no communication from national, and the last one at JFK was cancelled because the chair said he finally got the message from national and Delta Local. He said he was glad he cancelled the last one because not many were showing up and he had made his point that Pinnacle pilots were unhappy with the negotiations. It wasnt about speeding them up or changing the direction, it was about Pinnacle PTSD and needing an outlet.

That doesn't surprise me. It literally was dishonesty at 9E.

 

[gojo]

That doesn't surprise me. It literally was dishonesty at 9E.

This thread should've been called dishonesty at Endeavor via Delta

 

[jynxyjericho]

This thread should've been called dishonesty at Endeavor via Delta

Eh, Delta really isn't breaking any rules. We made a judgement call, we were wrong to blindly trust Delta, and I can't fault them for letting us step into it. It's still better than the judge handing us GoJet or Republic wages and less soft pay. At least a few guys are getting the yes on the interview, the other guys should be first picks at U/CO and AA.