Difference between a DP and a SID?

cbattags

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Can someone shed some light in the main differences between the two.
My understanding is that DP's are designed for obstacle clearance and are found on the bottom of the airport diagram page (jepps). SID's are 2 types: Vector and Pilot nav. Designed to facilitate clearance delivery and transition form the airport to the enroute structure.
 

minitour

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ya know...I don't really understand this either. Don't you always have obstacle clearance on an IFR procedure?

-mini
 

Monkeyfist

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SIDs are developed for busier terminals, if ATC wants you to fly a SID they will clear you to fly it.

DPs are developed for obstacle clearance only and are not given as part of a clearance, pilots are expected to fly them on their own.

All will give obstacle clearance until safely en route
 

JECKEL

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I talked to many controllers in many different cities about DPs published at the bottom of the jepp plates.

I would guess that 90% had no idea what I was talking about. They had no idea where the DPs came from and that they were no where in their SOPs. They could only guess that they were use when the tower was closed ... maybe.

Example ... SAV has a DP for every one of their runways printed on the bottom of the jepp. I asked the local controller when we would use these things. His first reply was that he had no idea what I was talking about ... go figure. I then explained to him what is was and I got the standard reply, "I've been a controller here for 14 years and I have never heard of any DP or any need for a DP off this airport. It is something we would never expect you to do and would probably question you if you followed them. Call jepp and ask them what it is because it is no where in our local terps manual or procedures."

I have gotten that response from over 20 airports where I have questioned the DPs. I think two or three controllers thought they had heard something about before and could only think that it was used when the tower was closed ... but for now fly runway heading ... cleared for takeoff.
 

avbug

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A SID is a DP. A DP is a SID. We call them all DP's now.

Proceedural DP's are assigned for traffic management. Obstacle DP's are designed for obstacle protection. A departure proceedure can be for both obtacles, and traffic flow, and it's still a DP.
 

midlifeflyer

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avbug said:
A SID is a DP. A DP is a SID.
While a SID is a DP, a DP is not necessarily a SID.

DP is the overall term for "Departure Procedures." They come in two flavors:

1. "Obstacle Departure Procedures" (ODP) which are designed for getting out of tight spaces

2. "Standard Instrument Departure procedures." (SID) which are designed for traffic flow.

The primary procedural difference between them is clearance. You are presumed to be cleared to fly an ODP unless you are instructed to the contrary (in which case you might decide to decline the clearance since waiting is usually preferable to a meeting with cumulus granite). But you never fly a SID without it being included in your clearance.

Not surprisingly the AIM explains it pretty well in § 5-2-6.
 

JECKEL

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"You are presumed to be cleared to fly an ODP unless you are instructed to the contrary (in which case you might decide to decline the clearance since waiting is usually preferable to a meeting with cumulus granite). "

Why, then, don't local controllers know about these ODPs? Why do they have NO CLUE as to what I'm talking about when I ask them about DPs/ODPs at their home airport?

I have been instructed, by controllers, not to fly these things so I would guess that I am not "presumed" to be cleared for any of ODPs.

There must be more to this. Your simple answer doesn't hold water, and there is no cumulus granite popping up around SAV (in every direction) for hundreds of miles.
 

Vector4fun

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JECKEL said:
Why, then, don't local controllers know about these ODPs? Why do they have NO CLUE as to what I'm talking about when I ask them about DPs/ODPs at their home airport?

I have been instructed, by controllers, not to fly these things so I would guess that I am not "presumed" to be cleared for any of ODPs.

There must be more to this. Your simple answer doesn't hold water, and there is no cumulus granite popping up around SAV (in every direction) for hundreds of miles.

If you're asking why the controllers don't know anything about the "DPs published at the bottom of a Jepp plate", it's likely they've never even seen a Jepp plate for their airport. FAA controllers don't use Jeppesen for anything. We use NACO charts and plates. I've never seen a Jepp plate for the airport I work at, and I've been here more than five years. Never ask a controller a question about a Jeppesen plate or chart.

If you want to know what NACO charts say about SAV, see below:




IFR TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES








Civil Airports and Selected Military Airports






ALL USERS: Airports that have Departure Procedures (DPs) designed specifically to assist pilots in avoiding obstacles during the climb to the minimum enroute altitude , and/or airports that have civil IFR take-off minimums other than standard, are listed below. Take-off Minimums and Departure Procedures apply to all runways unless otherwise specified. Altitudes, unless otherwise indicated, are minimum altitudes in MSL.


DPs specifically designed for obstacle avoidance are described below in text, or published separately as a graphic procedure. If the (Obstacle) DP is published as a graphic procedure, its name will be listed below, and it can be found in either this volume (civil), or a separate Departure Procedure volume (military), as appropriate. Users will recognize graphic obstacle DPs by the term "(OBSTACLE)" included in the procedure title; e.g., TETON TWO (OBSTACLE). If not assigned another DP or radar vector by ATC, this procedure may be flown to ensure obstacle clearance.

Graphic DPs designed by ATC to standardize traffic flows, ensure aircraft separation and enhance capacity are referred to as "Standard Instrument Departures (SIDs)". SIDs also provide obstacle clearance and are published under the appropriate airport section. ATC clearance must be received prior to flying a SID.








SAVANNAH, GA





SAVANNAH/HILTON HEAD INTL






DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
Rwys 9, 36, climb runway


heading to 500 before turning. Rwy 18, climb runway

heading to 1100 before turning right. Rwy 27, climb

runway heading to 1200 before turning left.


If you want to know why the controllers don't use the above, it's because they have procedures written in their facility manuals to cover obstacle clearance when the Tower/Approach is operating. These procedures are not published outside the facility.

And if you want to know when you'd use the obstacle DPs published above, you're welcome to use them when the Tower/Approach is closed.

Did that answer all your questions? :)
 

midlifeflyer

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JECKEL said:
"You are presumed to be cleared to fly an ODP unless you are instructed to the contrary (in which case you might decide to decline the clearance since waiting is usually preferable to a meeting with cumulus granite). "

I have been instructed, by controllers, not to fly these things so I would guess that I am not "presumed" to be cleared for any of ODPs.
No. You have been "instructed to the contrary."

If the routing given by ATC allows you to not hit anything based on your aircraft performance (which it should - that's one of the things vectors is =supposedly= all about) no problem.

You're right, though. In most radar situations, ATC doesn't know and doesn't care about the ODP. But, depending on where you are flying , you should.

I'm not sure what your water problem is.
 

B-727

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Obstacle Departure Procedure (ODP)-

"A preplanned instrument flight rule (IFR) departure procedure printed for pilot use in textual or graphic form to provide obstruction clearance via the least onerous route from the terminal area to the appropriate en route structure. ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC."

(from Jeppesen Air Traffic Control section, US O-1)

Here is a plain English example (my words, not from Jepp):

Consider the case of a departure from an airport at which the tower is closed (or, terminal radar is out of service). You have called FSS for clearance, and have been "cleared as filed", with no SID assigned. The ODP, if correctly flown, is a way for you to get from takeoff to the first enroute fix without hitting the terrain or an obstruction.

B-727
 

XTW

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If there is a ODP published for the runway to be used and if the tower fails to issue any other departure instructions, anybody departing into IMC conditions without following the ODP is an accident waiting to happen. VMC is a different story.

Before departing IPT last week, the tower controller actually asked us if we had the ODP for runway 27. It was the first time I had ever had a tower controller ask this question. I'm glad he does this as I'm sure there are some pilots that overlook this VERY important piece of "survival equipment".

X
 

troy

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From FAA-H-8261-1, Instrument Procedures Handbook:

SID VERSUS DP
Prior to 2000, instrument departure procedures (DPs) were published in two separate formats: IFR departure procedures and standard instrument departures (SIDs). IFR departure procedures were textual obstacle clearance procedures published by the Office of Aviation System Standards (AVN). SIDs were graphically depicted, preplanned departure procedures produced by the FAA Air Traffic Service (ATS). In December of 2000, in an attempt to bring the creation and development of departure procedures into a common processing system, the FAA shifted responsibility to a single creation group and also changed the associated terminology.
Once this change was made, all departure procedures were termed DPs, with IFR departure procedures renamed obstacle departure procedures (ODPs), and SIDs renamed system enhancement DPs. Additionally, the creation and publication of DPs was given to the National Flight Procedures Office (NFPO). Due to the confusion both internally among pilots in the U.S., and externally among foreign pilots (the term SID is used abroad), the FAA has decided to return to a modified version of the original naming convention. Departure procedures will be divided into two groups, SIDs and ODPs. While the date of conversion is not exact, it is currently in work. For simplification of this discussion, we will refer to departure procedures as ODPs and SIDs.

 

Vector4fun

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XTW,

Your post reminded me I really can't speak for all Towers. I've been civilian FAA my whole career. The facilities I've worked have all had approach controls and always taken care of ODP procedures. I really don't know how all contract towers operate, and whether they all follow the same procedures...
 

JECKEL

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I talked to controller in RDU last trip about their ODP of climb to 3000 ft msl before turning off 23L. He, once again had no idea what I was talking about, but after about 5 minutes of research, has said the ODP was in case the tower was ever closed or for the possiblity of being in a non radar environment. All RDU MVAs and SOPs outlined by their TERPs manual take such things into account.

They would not expect you to fly the ODP on you own accord nor should you presume that it is part of a clearance unless otherwise advised. Instructions from the tower and departure control would cover protect you from obstacles.
 

midlifeflyer

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They would not expect you to fly the ODP on you own accord nor should you presume that it is part of a clearance unless otherwise advised.
Of course, that's not what the AIM says. From AIM 5.2:

==============================
ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC. "
==============================

Or maybe the Pilot/Controller Glossary will help. You know, the one that's part of both the AIM and the ATC Manual?

==============================
OBSTACLE DEPARTURE PROCEDURE (ODP)- A preplanned instrument flight rule (IFR) departure procedure printed for pilot use in textual or graphic form to provide obstruction clearance via the least onerous route from the terminal area to the appropriate en route structure. ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC.
==============================

On the other hand, your controller stared the conversation by saying he didn't know what you were talking about.

Hmmmm. Specific information in the AIM vs. a controller who claims to be clueless. I wonder which one I will rely on.

In a radar environment, the difference won't matter since ATC will almost always issue a radar vector or alternate departure procedure, which negates the ODP.

But if you are =not= given vectors after takeoff or another departure procedure and you don't follow the ODP because no one specifically told you to, we could be reading about you in an interesting NTSB report, all wondering why this instrument pilot had a CFIT accident when there was a printed procedure to keep him out of the rocks.
 

CLECA

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Midlifeflyer is right on the $$. The DP's are there for your safety as everyone has stated and it is imperative that you fly them in IMC conditions. They are however negated if tower gives you a turn other than the DP. If tower has you in radar contact and gives you a turn you are supposed to follow that. I believe in NOS charts there is a dedicated section but we use Jepps so I'm not sure. Other than this what everyone else has said is right on the mark. Our company requires us to brief any DP's for the RWY we use prior to all T/O's regardless of IMC vs. VMC. I think they were originally for non-towered airports but they are at all now if the airport needs it. They are there for any obstructions, not just terrain above x height and within x miles of the rwy and again can be referenced by your A/C climb performance. I believe SAV has some for towers and stacks. Flame away.
 

doug_or

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CLECA- you are correct, there is a section at the begining (section c?)of the NOS packet with all published ODPs for that region.
 

Flyguy6

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From my understanding and I am not an expert, bt I have flown into and out of SAV twice in my life. When you get your clearence, you wil contact SAV departure and they will vector you out of class C airspace and I believe that that uis the SID. So, you dont really have to worry cause they wil vector you out of the class C anyway
 
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