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Did spin training today and holy ish!

JetSpeed219

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Sorry if this is long!
So I'm doing spins with my instructor in a 152 today, we first do a power off spin to the right, then a power off spin to the left. Those both go just fine, you actually have to hold the rudder in to keep it spinning and once you let it out the airplane rights itself, the same was true for our next spin which was power on to the right. All three of these are great, about 3 rotations for each spin. Well we get to the last one, power on to the left. So we get into it and I could not get the rotation to stop so my instructor takes the controls, he couldn't get the rotation to stop right away either! He was struggling with the controls for a while and I could tell this wasn't normal but finally after 8 rotations we came out of it. Afterwards my instructor who has been teaching for 5 years says to me that he has never experienced that before. At any rate it scared the ish out of me! Anybody else have any similar experiences? Is 8 rotations a lot or am I over-reacting?
 

Ill Mitch

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JetSpeed219 said:
Sorry if this is long!
So I'm doing spins with my instructor in a 152 today, we first do a power off spin to the right, then a power off spin to the left. Those both go just fine, you actually have to hold the rudder in to keep it spinning and once you let it out the airplane rights itself, the same was true for our next spin which was power on to the right. All three of these are great, about 3 rotations for each spin. Well we get to the last one, power on to the left. So we get into it and I could not get the rotation to stop so my instructor takes the controls, he couldn't get the rotation to stop right away either! He was struggling with the controls for a while and I could tell this wasn't normal but finally after 8 rotations we came out of it. Afterwards my instructor who has been teaching for 5 years says to me that he has never experienced that before. At any rate it scared the ish out of me! Anybody else have any similar experiences? Is 8 rotations a lot or am I over-reacting?

It sounded like it might have been slightly accelerated, which means to recover you need to hold in pro spin controls until it stabilizes and then do the normal recovery.

OTOH, there has been some debate about how far you should let a spin in a C-150/152 develope. Some advocate just a couple of rotations and others say let it go all you want. Heh, after 20 rotations or so, the engine stops due to fuel starvation because the inertia slings the fuel to outside of the tank. That's always fun.

I have never had any problems recovering from a spin in a C-152, but I do know a fellow aerobatic instructor who did. If I recall correctly, it didn't recover until after about 8 rotations. He was with a student.
He and I went up and tried to recreate it, but couldn't. This was in an aerobat model.

Hmm...it could have been in an aft CG configuration also. Something to look in to.
 

Kream926

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thats why i will not do an accelerated one. 8 rotations huh? how high were you when you started them?
 

cforst513

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kream926 raises a good point. i did spins in a 172 and we started at like 5500 or 6000 feet. when it was all said and done, i was leveling out around 3500 feet and had the airspeed indicator very close to Vne. i was amazed at our steep nose-down attitude and just how freaking quickly we lost altitude. for crap's sake, man, make sure you're high enough when you do those! and 8 rotations? wow, i mostly had 3-4, but we did power-off.
 

JetSpeed219

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We started at 7,500 feet initially, but never climbed after each spin because we weren't losing very much altitude until the last one which we started around 5,000 feet and came out of it at about 2,000 feet. We were not in an accelerated spin either, the airspeed was stabilized at around 40 knots......
 

Mr. Cole

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Jet,

An accelerated spin doesn't really have anything to do with the airspeed. Because you're still stalled the airspeed should be low whether in an unaccelerated or accelerated spin. The accelerated part has more to do with the rotational velocity. The first or second spin I ever did I made the mistake of releasing back pressure and it really started to tighten up. By releasing the back pressure the AOA was lowered just enough to remain stalled and in the spin, but just enough to reduce the drag, allowing the rotation to increase. Power will not only accelerate the spin, but also flatten it.

Dave


JetSpeed219 said:
We started at 7,500 feet initially, but never climbed after each spin because we weren't losing very much altitude until the last one which we started around 5,000 feet and came out of it at about 2,000 feet. We were not in an accelerated spin either, the airspeed was stabilized at around 40 knots......
 

Kream926

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cforst


i dont mean to be rude and start bashin cause we are finally starting to agree on things, but doesnt a 172 have to be in the utility catagory to be spun or did i just get that outta left field?
 

CFIcare

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Ill Mitch: I've spun a 152 aerobat up to 20 revolutions (with Bill Kershner, the spin master, so I had faith in both him and the very-well maintained airplane). The only limiting factor is altitude on your recovery. The airplane settles into a stable oscilation of 3 or so spins at a 70 or so degree nose down pitch, to 3 or so in a flatter pitch where you can see the horizon. It will do this indefinitely, hands off, until you hit dirt or recover.

One thing that may have happened in the case of the first poster's spin is that the airplane's rudder may be slightly out of rig, or not giving full deflection. The airplane I used was x-rayed for stress annually, and the control cables were routinely inspected and rigged to spec tolerances. While the average flight school airplane is certified to recover from a spin, as defined by the FAA as 1/2 turn, I would hesitate to go very far into the unknown unless I knew tha airplane I was using met all of the specifications (contol tension, control free play space etc) that it was certified under.

Don't get me wrong, spins are fun and you should not be afraid of them. Just respect them and don't go off and do them solo in a strange airplane because it says in the POH that the particular make and model did it once for a test pilot back in th 60's. Your particular airplane has a unique history of student pilot abuse, unlike those used in certification.

Also, the 172 is a whole 'nother issue. It is not as recovery-friendly as the 172, being nose heavier and with more horsepower. You have to hold the recovery inputs longer to get a recovery from a fully developed spin.

back when i did my CFI ride, the FSDO nazi made me spin because he thought he would be a jerk. He didn't know I'd had some good training. We did a cross-control entry , power on spin to the left with 5 turns. He was a little less intimidating after that. :D
 

User546

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Kream926 said:
i dont mean to be rude and start bashin cause we are finally starting to agree on things, but doesnt a 172 have to be in the utility catagory to be spun or did i just get that outta left field?
Kream is correct. The 172's can only be spun while in the "Utility" category.

To confirm that I pulled out both my 1982 Skyhawk 172P, and my 2001 172S information manuals, and they both stated under Norman Category section: "Aerobaitic manuevers, including spins, are not approved."

Then under the Utility Category: "In the utility category, the baggage compartment, and rear seat must not be ocuppied. No aerobatic manuevers are approved except those listeed below: Chandelles, Lazy Eights, Steep Turns, SPINS, Stalls."

I knew I've been keeping those manuals around for something. ;)
 

cforst513

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User997 said:
Then under the Utility Category: "In the utility category, the baggage compartment, and rear seat must not be ocuppied. No aerobatic manuevers are approved except those listeed below: Chandelles, Lazy Eights, Steep Turns, SPINS, Stalls."

I knew I've been keeping those manuals around for something. ;)
so in my case, both were true: nothing in the back seat, nothing in the baggage area, so i was in the clear, right? it was a 172R model, just 2 pilots in the front and that's it.
 

User546

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cforst513 said:
so in my case, both were true: nothing in the back seat, nothing in the baggage area, so i was in the clear, right? it was a 172R model, just 2 pilots in the front and that's it.
Just having two pilots in the front and nothing in the back doesn't automatically put you in the Utility category.

To determine that, you have to break out your weight & balance you did for that particular flight, then check your C.G. against the graph that Cessna provides in their manuals to determine what category exactly you were flying in. It's very important to always check those two things before doing any spin practice.
 
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