Dhl???

[buzzdriver]

?????


DHL Airways (ATW, Jul16, 2003)

The company's chairman and chief executive officer and a US investor group said they have bought Miami-based DHL Airways and renamed it ASTAR Air Cargo. The airline owns around 40 aircraft and operates a hub at Cincinnati Airport. ASTAR Air Cargo said it has agreed to to provide air cargo services for DHL Worldwide Express for 11 years.


?????

 

[de727ups]

Rumor has it

That the new DHL is going to buy out Airborne and staple Airborne's list to the bottom of DHL's list.

 

[AV8OR]

Re: Rumor has it

That the new DHL is going to buy out Airborne and staple Airborne's list to the bottom of DHL's list.

Way to go man. Startin crap like that.

Nobody at ASTAR is sayin that. We'll be fortunate to have a job at all if that a$$ Administrative Law Judge has anything to say about it.

Good try but our MEC has been in close contact with the Teamsters at ABX and as far as I know it's been pretty cordial. Probably more cordial that yall were with, say, Challenge Air.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: Re: Rumor has it

Good try but our MEC has been in close contact with the Teamsters at ABX and as far as I know it's been pretty cordial. Probably more cordial that yall were with, say, Challenge Air.

AV8OR...

Excellent...touche`

 

[de727ups]

Rumor officially refuted...

I don't start rumors.

If it was bad information, then so be it, but that's what I had been hearing out on the line. Just like the Fedex Capt I talked to today who had heard on the line that the UPS contract was a done deal and wanted to know the details. I told him that was a bad rumor and that we really don't know anything yet.

Another rumor I heard was that there were several ex-EAL scabs in the CAC pilot group. Any truth to that?

I certainly didn't mean any ill will by making my post. Guess I'll just keep quiet about what's going on at UPS so as not to ruffle any feathers.

 

[ABXFLYR]

All I've ever heard from our E-board is that should such a merger occur( and most rumors suggest it will) we would work with DHL(Astar) to achieve a fair resolution IAW Allegheny-Mohawk. And as AV8OR puts forth, our respective union leaders have been in close communication. To the best of my knowledge, no one has suggested stapling anyone. (But it's pretty good troll bait...) IMO, the only way either unions will have a chance in this long term, is if we work together.

As for UPS, I had the pleasure of meeting your MEC Chairman up in ILN this week. He was up here demonstrating his and your unions support for our contract negotiations. He seems like a real class act, and it was very interesting and informative to hear him speak.

Best regards...

 

[T-Gates]

Re: Rumor officially refuted...

Another rumor I heard was that there were several ex-EAL scabs in the CAC pilot group. Any truth to that?

Yeah, there were a few. But that did not comprise the WHOLE CAC pilot group. There are/were some EAL scabs at UPS too......

--03M

 

[nightrider]

Dhl is owned and operated by the deutche post, if it wasn't, there would have been no reason to spin it off and rename it and then have it sign a 10 yr. agreement to fly for dhl. DOES EVERYONE IN THE U.S. LOOK STUPID TO THEM they think that they will skirt the admin. law judge and do business as usual by covering up their illegal operation with a hard to follow paper trail.

When the ceo and cfo for deutche post and dhl agreed to show for deposition and then no showed and refused to participate, it told most people all they needed to know. They can lie all they want and it cost them nothing however once under oath they will be indicted for perjury and they don't want to risk it. This is the reason they didn't show up.

n

 

[AV8OR]

"DOES EVERYONE IN THE U.S. LOOK STUPID TO THEM"

Nope. Just you.

Listen dude. I don't know exactly who you work for, but I bet I could guess. You need to get your facts straight before you throw around your lack of knowledge. John Dahsburg and his group of all American investors bought the entire airline. There is no foreign ownership. And the attorneys at FedUps have pretty much acknowledged this already. The only leg they have to stand on in this thing is to try and insist that because we have a very large customer, and it's not our only customer, DHL Worldwide, that we are somehow "operationally controlled" by DHL. The bottom line is UPS and FedEx couldn't get what they wanted accomplished over the past three years through the petitioning the DOT to revoke our licence so they bought off a few Congressmen to mandate this hearing.

Pretty interesting tactic don't ya think. Let's see...

First you have an ALJ that has already somehow tried to link our fitness of citizenship to our national security by making a comment that this proceeding is about protecting the people on the ground in the US from foriegn airlines flying above them. Yeah, that's it.

Second, through Congressional fiat, slipping it into the Homeland Security bill at the last minute, Ted Stevens of AK, single handedly denied our ability to bid on any further military charters even though we have been a member of CRAF for years and could, in theory, still be activated at any time.

The DOT has ruled in our favor every time they have looked into our citizenship, (always at FedUps behest I might add).

Now that FedUps has gotten the DOT, via Stevens, to drag us before an ALJ to decide this, where are the government's lawyers looking into this? Oh, that's right, they don't have any! So here we are in court trying to prove that we meet, and always have met the legal definition of a US citizen airline, and we have on thre bench a hardly neutral judge, who granted supeonas to depose everyone throught the DHL network from CEO to Janitor, but denied AStars ability to depose Fred Smith or the CEO for UPS. Yeah that's fair. And, acting as prosecuting attourneys for the government, the FedEx and UPS lawyers. Oh yeah they are acting as "friends of the court" but they're the only lawyers there trying to investigate us.

"When the ceo and cfo for deutche post and dhl agreed to show for deposition and then no showed and refused to participate, it told most people all they needed to know. They can lie all they want and it cost them nothing however once under oath they will be indicted for perjury and they don't want to risk it. This is the reason they didn't show up."

This just further illustrates your ignorance. The CEO for DPWN and the CEO for DHLI, Zumwinkle and Doerken, never agreed to show up for a deposition because, a., they don't own or mangage DHL/Astar Airways...at all, and b., they are foreign citizens.

The person you might be refering to is William Robinson, who IS a US citizen, (I think he lives in Idaho, he's from Louisiana), and WAS the majority shareholder in DHL Airways until we were purchased, lock, stock and barrel, by our CEO. The reason he HAD agreed to be deposed was because he had been the largest shareholder. The reason he he decided to NOT be deposed was because once he sold all of his shares, he was no longer in any way conected to ASTAR.


Look, first I apologize to anybody else reading this board for taking up this much space, but I'm not gonna let somebody from a competitor just friggin lie about my employer on a public message board and go unchallenged. Whether it's from ignorance or bias, it's still wrong. Astar has and still is having our citizenship challenged. What's at stake is our certificate and the jobs of around 500 ALPA pilots as well a bunch of others. Now that there is NO foreign money (it used to be the legal 25%) invested in us, FEDEX and UPS are trying to get the definition of "operational control" to be expanded to the point that it shuts us down because we have a large customer they don't like. That's the facts. Anyone who has way to much free time but is interested in the FACTS can go to the DOT website and type in the Docket number for the case and read all you want. It is 13089. I'll try and post a link.

In the mean time if this guy responds, they can have the last word here. I'll be content to have my last word in court.

 

[AV8OR]

DHL Fights for Right
To Do Business in U.S.

FedEx, UPS Try to Push Competitor
Out of Domestic Air-Cargo Market
By STEPHEN POWER and RICK BROOKS
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


DHL Airways INC., part of one of the world's largest air-cargo networks, is in a dogfight over its right to keep doing business in the U.S.

Competitors FedEx Corp. and United Parcel Service Inc., which dominate the U.S. market, are trying to persuade federal regulators that Miami-based DHL is controlled by the German postal monopoly, Deutsche Post AG. That would violate aviation law that forbids foreign-owned airlines -- and those controlled by noncitizens -- from hauling freight or people between U.S. cities.

But a decision in Washington could depend less on federal law than other factors: the influence of powerful politicians with parochial and personal ties to the competing companies, lingering anti-German sentiment over the Iraq war and a cantankerous federal administrative judge whose remarks from the bench have led to accusations that he is biased against DHL .

The outcome is to be decided by the U.S. Department of Transportation, which tried to rule in DHL's favor in 2002 in a more informal inquiry. After the DOT's inspector general criticized the process, Congress -- after lobbying by FedEx and UPS -- ordered the DOT to review the case again. Deutsche Post says it doesn't control DHL , despite close ties, and says its rivals are trying to throttle a competitor.

UNFRIENDLY SKIES



FedEx and UPS have descended on Washington to persuade regulators that DHL Airways is controlled by Deutsche Post, the German postal monopoly, and thus violates a federal law restricting foreign-owned carriers from the U.S. market. A brief look at the companies:

FedEx United Parcel Service DHL Airways
HEADQUARTERS Memphis, Tenn. Atlanta Miami
2002 REVENUE $22.49 billion* $31.27 billion $253.9 million
U.S. MARKET SHARE 27% 52% 0.3%

*For fiscal year ended May 31

Sources: the companies; Department of Transportation; SJ Consulting Group



It is because of the U.S. citizenship law that the nation's airlines, unlike most other businesses, don't face foreign competition in domestic markets. A web of international rules limits U.S. carriers in similar ways in other countries around the world, though an effort is under way to loosen those restrictions among U.S. and European carriers.

The next ruling has major implications for the $46 billion-a-year U.S. package-delivery business, the world's biggest freight market. A decision against DHL could not only ground the airline in the U.S., but also could imperil Deutsche Post's proposed $1.06 billion acquisition of most of Airborne Inc. of Seattle. Airborne is the fourth-biggest U.S. parcel carrier, after the U.S. Postal Service, with 6% of the market.

DHL , which has just an 0.3% sliver of the U.S. market, has even gone so far as to change its name and ownership structure to help avert an unfavorable ruling. On Monday, the stock of DHL was acquired by its chief executive and two other investors, and it will become known as Astar Air Cargo.

The Transportation Department's administrative law judge has set a hearing next month. The agency has told the judge to make a recommendation by Oct. 31, but it is not bound by his recommendation.

Both sides are courting congressional allies in case the DOT rules against them. FedEx Chairman and CEO Frederick Smith met with House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R., Mo.) last month at Charlie Palmer's Steak, a trendy Washington restaurant. Mr. Blunt, whose son Andrew is a lobbyist for UPS in Missouri, tried unsuccessfully last spring to amend an $80 billion war-spending bill to bar DHL from competing with FedEx and UPS for U.S. military cargo contracts. The measure would have disqualified any company that gets at least 50% of operating revenue from a foreign entity that either owns a voting interest or is owned by an "agency or instrumentality of a foreign state."

Not to be outdone, DHL and Airborne are adding their own lobbyists. DHL has hired John Timmons, former aide to Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John McCain. Airborne hired former Transportation Secretary William T. Coleman Jr. and former Sen. Slade Gorton (R., Wash.).

Politically, allies of FedEx and UPS appear to have the upper hand. After trying unsuccessfully to help Mr. Blunt with his anti-DHL amendment, Senate Appropriations Committee Chairman Ted Stevens (R., Alaska) attached a similar measure to a pending aviation bill. The measure would require that air carriers offering point-to-point service in the U.S. be under the "actual control" of U.S. citizens. Although the DOT has enforced that standard for years, the 1938 aviation law doesn't spell out the meaning of "control."

Mr. Stevens says he is pushing his amendment to "ensure reciprocity" with European governments that have similar laws. But like Mr. Blunt, he has more than an academic interest in airline ownership requirements. Last year, Alaska-based Lynden Air Cargo LLC lost a multimillion dollar U.S. military contract to DHL . Lynden is siding with FedEx and UPS in the DOT dogfight.

Mr. Blunt has said that his proposal was intended to clarify previous DOT rulings "on a matter of national security," and that the military shouldn't use foreign-owned carriers to transport cargo. A spokeswoman for Mr. Blunt added that he doesn't recall details of his encounter with Mr. Smith. A FedEx spokeswoman says the two men simply "bumped into" each other at the restaurant.

This is an awkward time for DHL to be facing scrutiny over its citizenship, because of the Iraq war and Germany's opposition to it. FedEx, based in Memphis, Tenn., and Atlanta-based UPS deny any attempt to tap into anti-German feelings in Washington, but their campaign against DHL has coincided with efforts by some lawmakers to bar German, French and Russian companies from postwar reconstruction contracts financed by the U.S.

For now, the strangest part of the case is a war of words between DHL and the administrative law judge presiding over next month's DOT hearing. The airline's attorneys have repeatedly attacked rulings by the judge, Ronnie Yoder, and asked the DOT to intervene. Last month, DHL accused him of "a hostile attitude ... from the outset" that includes "automatically" denying DHL's requests "without FedEx or UPS even picking up a pen to object." DOT officials haven't responded to DHL .

During a preliminary hearing in April, Mr. Yoder appeared to link the ownership dispute to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and the war on terror. "There is an interest here that goes beyond this case," Mr. Yoder said, explaining that Americans, "whether in skyscrapers or on the ground," should "have some assurance" that planes flying in U.S. skies are "operating and controlled by U.S. citizens." At a May hearing, the judge, upset about letters from DHL employees, said to one of the airline's lawyers: "I'm glad to meet the fellow who thinks it's a good idea to send ugly letters to the chief judge."

Mr. Yoder declined to discuss the case. In an order last month, he said the "allegations of judicial bias are unsubstantiated and unfounded and do not gain credence through repetition."

The DOT has overruled Mr. Yoder in previous cases. Politically, though, a decision against DHL by Mr. Yoder, a judge for 27 years, would be hard for administration officials to ignore.

It isn't clear who will steer the DOT's deliberations on the case. The White House says it plans to nominate Karan Bhatia for the open job of assistant secretary for aviation and international affairs. But Mr. Bhatia once worked for a law firm that represented DHL's international unit. A DOT spokesman said the agency hasn't determined whether Mr. Bhatia would participate in the DHL case.

Adding to the uncertainty, two other DOT officials, Deputy Secretary Michael Jackson and General Counsel Kirk Van Tine, are about to leave. And the DOT's policy undersecretary, Jeffrey Shane, has recused himself because he once represented a DHL affiliate.


Here is a link to the case...http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm?CFID=1927565&CFTOKEN=22221088

put in 13089 in the docket #

 

[de727ups]

AV8OR

Now I'm starting to see the big picture of why you are so angry...I was sort of wondering....

Thanks for the education on your side of the story, I'm no great lover of the airline managements on the other side of the story, either.

I wonder if Branson will be able to start an airline in the US without similar oppostion from domestic airlines?

 

[AV8OR]

de727ups,

Thanks for the posts. I have absolutly NO problem with the pilots at FedEx, or UPS. The thing is, short of telling DHL Worldwide, "Oh well I guess you'll just have to split all of our flying among a multitude of low-end operators, I don't really anyway to quell the storm. The funny thing is, if DHL had their way, that's exactly what they'd do. Our scope clause is one of the few things that is keeping them from farming it all out to the lowest bidder anyway.

Anyway, best to all you guys. I just let a UPS pilot have the last jumpseat home from CVG last weekend because it was his wife's birthday. Great guy. Certainly not about the pilots.

Have a great week.

Tom

 

[AV8OR]

Here's another

Dow Jones Business News
Judge Says DOT Should Extend Deadline in DHL Case
Friday July 18, 9:34 pm ET
By Rick Brooks, Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal


ATLANTA -- The federal judge set to decide the ownership dispute over cargo carrier DHL Airways (News - Websites) Inc. said the Department of Transportation should consider extending the Oct. 31 deadline in the case by at least 90 days.
ADVERTISEMENT


Ronnie Yoder, the agency's chief administrative law judge, wrote in a ruling the unusually tight schedule for gathering evidence and conducting a hearing in the 2 1/2-year fight "risks prejudicing the rights of all participants and the public interest in this proceeding."

He said the department should consider dropping the deadline imposed by the agency in May, or at a minimum postpone the cutoff date until the end of January. A DOT spokesman couldn't be immediately reached for comment.

Miami-based DHL Airways -- which changed its name earlier this week to Astar Air Cargo Inc. and rivals FedEx Corp. (NYSE:FDX - News) , of Memphis, Tenn., and United Parcel Service Inc. (NYSE:UPS - News) , Atlanta -- have sparred over almost every detail of the case since it started in April. Astar also has turned over more than 20,000 pages of documents since late May, making it even harder to keep the case on track to meet the October deadline.

The latest complication came with this week's acquisition of DHL Airways by an investor group led by John Dasburg, the carrier's chief executive. The 95% stake purchased for $57 million was held by Deutsche Post AG and William Robinson, one of the earliest owners of the DHL Worldwide Express delivery network.

Astar claims the takeover means the airline's past ownership is irrelevant to the case, which is set to culminate in a hearing in mid-August. But FedEx and UPS have accused Astar, Deutsche Post and Mr. Robinson of dragging their feet on producing potentially crucial testimony until a discovery deadline passes late today. In his ruling, Judge Yoder extended the discovery cutoff until July 25.

FedEx and UPS said they would support giving him more time to determine if Astar is in violation of federal laws limiting ownership or control of U.S. airlines by foreign entities.

"We want to be able to do a thorough job, and we want the judge to be able to do a thorough job," FedEx spokeswoman Kristin Krause told The Wall Street Journal. "If [more time] will help us get all the facts in the case, then that's a good thing."

David Bolger, a UPS spokesman, said, "We would like to see if it could be extended so a thorough, public, transparent review of this issue could be conducted, which is important."

Elliott Seiden, an attorney for Astar, declined to comment, saying he hadn't read the ruling yet.

Judge Yoder has more than 100 other pending cases to work on, according to his ruling, adding that his staff will shrink in August with the departure of summer interns. The judge's top clerk also will be gone for more than two weeks starting in late October to get married.

The Transportation Department already has extended the deadline for a ruling in the case by two months.


Not too surprised about this. When Yoder first asked for an extension, he asked Fedex and UPS for their recomendation and, low and behold, they suggested Dec 23rd. Right through the Christmas season. Thankfully the DOT saw right through this.

Adios

AV8OR

 

[GoABX]

WHAT IS GOOD FOR UPS/FDX MANAGEMENT MIGHT NOT BE GOOD FOR UPS/FDX PILOTS.

Say the ruling goes against DHL Airways and effectively Airborne, then DHL would have to subcontract to a bunch of bottom feeder companies that will do the work for 40-60 cents on the dollar. What happens to UPS/FDX competitiveness and cost structure? Management will look for concessions. DHL losing could be analogous to RJs for pax carriers.

 

[ABXFLYR]

GoABX,

Interesting point, and one which hadn't occured to me. Makes one think...

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. .DHL would have to subcontract to a bunch of bottom feeder companies that will do the work for 40-60 cents on the dollar. . . .<snip>. . .

I understand that the US Postal service used to move their Priority mail with this system. Now we can't jam enough of their orange bags onto our jets each day. . . .