destruction of unions

[Freeze_gopher]

Sounds like FDR would have liked the reforms Scott Walker has introduced. He foresaw the militant tactics (ie. taking over the capital and intimidating those who disagree) that such Public Unions would utilize.

Actually, you are quite incorrect. As an aside, how do you pick just the language you like out of one letter? The letter was written in 1937 so the language is a little different than now, but any consideration would have led you to "as usually understood" and "militant tactics" clearly the point of this letter is a dialogue focused on the possibility of widespread general strikes at the federal level, with the leadership of the existing organization you claim he opposed. FDR's belief that public sector workers have the right to the same concerns and rights of protection as do private sector workers is in the letter! Is there any possibility of actual consideration here? I would like to think it's possible. It certainly doesn't seem probable.

FDR's concern was wide spread general strikes, not collective bargaining, not benefits, and certainly this letter does not in any way even vaguely suggest that public sector workers can not organize. In fact rules were put in place that protected the working conditions, pay, and benefits of public sector workers specifically so someone like Scott Walker could not place these workers in a position where they felt compelled to strike. These protections have led us to our current discussion. A discussion in which you and your brethren seem utterly lost. Pay has not jumped sharply for public sector labor, they do not have better benefits than they did thirty years ago (in fact they are worse). Why then does it seem that they have such a great deal? Their pay has not been eroded like it has in the private sector. Huge numbers of lesser skilled jobs have been outsourced to private industry. This outsourcing of jobs have left a larger than usual number of public sector employees on the pay roles that have advanced degrees...they make more money (well less however than their comparably educated private sector counter parts).

In any case, the suggestion that FDR opposed any form of organized labor is laughable and not historically correct.

 

[pilotyip]

In any case, the suggestion that FDR opposed any form of organized labor is laughable and not historically correct.

Well until his encounter with them during WWII where he came close to drafting them to put them back to work. But he got Stalin to tell the US workers to go back to work. Check it out it is in the histroy books.

 

[pilotyip]

It had nothing to do with them making a POS product??

It had everything to do with it, they were broke because of the union's demands, they could not invest in new product like Toyota, a non-union company.

BTW It looks like the people of Wisc have spoken and they strongly support what Walker has done. It will now spread across the national, Rationality in public contracts.

 

[ironspud]

Been humming "On Wisconsin" all evening. Something good must have happened.

 

[lindsaya99]

I just hope I don't have to say "I told you so".

 

[densoo]

A cautionary tale regarding unions particularly in Wisconsin. Many may not like the messenger (Rachel Maddow of MSNBC), but worth listening to as Wisconsin will be the model for the continuing destruction of our jobs nationally that began in earnest in the '80s.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/

Regarding the economy it has been said, "as goes California so goes the country." However regarding labor, "as goes Wisconsin so goes the country." In just one year the teachers' union membership fell by 45%, and the second largest union fell by 55%.

Loss of good paying jobs and loss of political clout in a downward spiral.

The market has spoken. We're next. But then, we have been since 1981.

 

[Dornier 335]

It had everything to do with it, they were broke because of the union's demands, they could not invest in new product like Toyota, a non-union company.

While a union might be a part of the problem, I don't think that the truth is that simple. If you look at Germany, country of a few "premium" car brands, you'll see that the labor groups are heavily unionized.

If you treat your employees right, then there is no need for a union. Just look at the f/a's out of ATL. I find it amazing that such a large employee group is not unionized.

 

[pilotyip]

While a union might be a part of the problem, I don't think that the truth is that simple. If you look at Germany, country of a few "premium" car brands, you'll see that the labor groups are heavily unionized.

If you treat your employees right, then there is no need for a union. Just look at the f/a's out of ATL. I find it amazing that such a large employee group is not unionized.

Yes but German unions have to get gov't approval for any new contract and there has to be a productivity gain in any wage increase. and yes the transplant car companies understand they have to threat their employees as well as the union plants to keep the unions out.

 

[maru657]

Sooo, some of you don't like unions or the so called liberal agenda. Fine, don't ever strike. Some of you think we don't spend too much on the military industrial complex. Fine but I've never seen too many actual veterans who think so.

 

[pilotyip]

Sooo, some of you don't like unions or the so called liberal agenda. Fine, don't ever strike. Some of you think we don't spend too much on the military industrial complex. Fine but I've never seen too many actual veterans who think so.

Here is Vet that knows our failure to spend on the military caused the deaths of about 50M people about 70 years ago.

BTW Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guinea. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp. world in 1979. Handwriting was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job. But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attracting employees. Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues. Unions are in the business of selling dues. If the Teamsters were as enlightened as many of the higher quality managers, they would understand you just lost your job and needed every nickel to feed yourself and not take that $100 out of your last paycheck, which included credit for earned vacation days.

 

[livin'thesim]

Maru, please grow up. You argue like a teenager. It's either all one way or all the other with you.

The taxpayer pushback came after decades of PUBLIC SECTOR UNION abuses of the negotiating process. We have no problem whatsoever with PRIVATE SECTOR UNIONS. The reason? Because there are checks and balances in the system.

With the public unions, there were no checks and balances. The unions got sympathetic politicians elected, and then "negotiated" excessive compensation. This would be the same thing as pilot unions electing the entire board of an airline.

The best part of this argument is that we don't really have to convince you, because it is clear that even in a liberal state like Wisconsin, sanity and justice won by 6%. That is encouraging.

As I stated before, pilot unions are true labor unions. Public employee unions are cartels MASQUERADING as unions. You can't see the difference? I know. And that is why you lost.

 

[igneousy2]

Right on, doughboy. FDR said it. That lefty was so bad he got a 3rd term.

and a 4th...and yes he was that bad.

 

[bluesideup1]

Where is all the outrage over the Mayors of San Diego and San Jose for trying to dismantle the unions previously agreed to pensions? Why are the senators not leaving the state so no one can vote on it? Why aren't the national union leaders organizing protests and sit ins that cause hundreds of thousands in damage to the state houses? Why isn't the President tweeting his support for the California state union workers?

Never mind I forgot it wasn't "the crazy right wing repubs that want to destroy all the unions, dismantle the middle class or kill all your babies." that was trying to balance an out of control budget.

It was the Democrats that did it. Move on nothing to see here.

 

[pilotyip]

Sooo, some of you don't like unions or the so called liberal agenda. Fine, don't ever strike. Some of you think we don't spend too much on the military industrial complex. Fine but I've never seen too many actual veterans who think so.

Think we are seeing class warfare redefined, it is now the public class vs private class.

 

[maru657]

Yep,, I was ALPA until they sold PATCO out. We went on to see ALPA sell out local after local for the larger companies. But, that was the 80,s and the advent of a generation that didn't remember the 30,s or the great depression. Well, we almost got that knowledge handed to us firsthand and may yet.