destruction of unions

[GogglesPisano]

Europe is imploding from decades of socialist policies, and burdensome red tape.

If we want to create more middle class jobs, we need a job friendly environment. Not more government intervention. High taxes and excess regulation decrease employment.

The empirical proof of the failure of Europe is visible to anyone willing to see it.

How are Germany, Sweden and Denmark doing?

 

[Downwind]

Another thing we can thank unions for is this asinine seniority system. What other professional industry can one not take their experience and resume and move into a different job with at least equal pay/benefits if not better? Why in the world are pilots promoted to captain based solely on date of hire? Merit should absolutely come in to play. This "you're next" concept is mind boggling.

I'll say it again. Unions are for mindless unskilled drones who want protection from the same. They have no business representing supposed skilled professional labor.

 

[waveflyer]

Sorry, but I'm not going to dig on public unions when so many executives are still paying themselves 1000x out of proportion with what they earn. The problem starts at the top. I don't like anyone who gets something for nothing- but fix leadership and power structures first before I'm going to dig on law enforcement putting their life on the line and getting a pension-

Most teachers I know work their arse off and only accept the job bc of a good pension deal- taking that away after the fact is BS.

 

[waveflyer]

Downwind- as much as I agree with you- we've been there- and seniority solves many more problems than it creates. But transferring seniority or at least longevity ought to be an industry priority. The fact that we're married to our companies by seniority and cannot leave without severe hits, when our executives are not is one of our major problems

 

[tomgoodman]

Why in the world are pilots promoted to captain based solely on date of hire? Merit should absolutely come in to play. This "you're next" concept is mind boggling.

The military attempts to determine merit by convening "promotion boards". Other organizations use peer voting. Do you favor one of these approaches, or some other method?

 

[pilotyip]

executives are not is one of our major problems

Top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal.

 

[Smarta$$]

More executive cokk sucking for yip. Very predictable.

 

[livin'thesim]

How are Germany, Sweden and Denmark doing?

Europe's largest economic powerhouse (Germany) is doing tolerably well, but still has some corporations looking to escape regulation and taxes by offshoring their production.

The real problem for all of Europe is that its native citizens are not producing a birth rate that hits replacement levels. This coming inversion of the age distribution will put even more stress on their welfare state policies than in the US.

 

[livin'thesim]

Sorry, but I'm not going to dig on public unions when so many executives are still paying themselves 1000x out of proportion with what they earn. The problem starts at the top. I don't like anyone who gets something for nothing- but fix leadership and power structures first before I'm going to dig on law enforcement putting their life on the line and getting a pension-

Most teachers I know work their arse off and only accept the job bc of a good pension deal- taking that away after the fact is BS.

I'll dig on them then. If executive compensation (which is egregious, in many cases) was causing companies to go bankrupt, then sure.

But it is very clear that unsustainable and unrealistic pension promises WILL bankrupt many municipalities, even if taxes were tripled. We do not owe our civil servants a luxurious retirement, especially when so many of those contracts were achieved through unethical and coercive tactics.

Civil servants should not be able to retire at 50 and spend 25-30 years (the same span as their working years) living for free off the taxpayer.

The CEO compensation bit is just a red herring. You are basically saying that until the private sector changes, you are okay with the public unions raping and plundering the municipal treasuries.

Glad that many municipalities are waking up and taking action.

 

[livin'thesim]

Another thing we can thank unions for is this asinine seniority system. What other professional industry can one not take their experience and resume and move into a different job with at least equal pay/benefits if not better? Why in the world are pilots promoted to captain based solely on date of hire? Merit should absolutely come in to play. This "you're next" concept is mind boggling.

I'll say it again. Unions are for mindless unskilled drones who want protection from the same. They have no business representing supposed skilled professional labor.

Close, but not quite.

Unions are for workers who might be perceived by management to be unskilled drones. Don't forget how replaceable management thinks you are as a pilot.

You might be the best airline pilot in the world, but good luck getting management to actually act on that, even if they agreed. They will make a decision based on the dollars 99% of the time.

Your sentiment is valid, but it would probably be disastrous to de-unionize.

 

[pilotyip]

The CEO compensation bit is just a red herring. You are basically saying that until the private sector changes, you are okay with the public unions raping and plundering the municipal treasuries.

(old post but fits) I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy.

Agreed that is called leadership, which is missing in most cases. But the 20%CEO pay cut by it self would mean nothing in saving the company, but it was well received by those also making a sacrifice.

More executive cokk sucking for yip. Very predictable.

ha ha very funny, sounds like jealousy, but then again this is FI were calling is the sign of superiority.

 

[Downwind]

Close, but not quite.

Unions are for workers who might be perceived by management to be unskilled drones. Don't forget how replaceable management thinks you are as a pilot.

You might be the best airline pilot in the world, but good luck getting management to actually act on that, even if they agreed. They will make a decision based on the dollars 99% of the time.

Your sentiment is valid, but it would probably be disastrous to de-unionize.

But doesn't the union prove your point? They know we can't and rarely leave because of our seniority system. If you could walk with two weeks notice taking your type and currency with you would they be so quick to tell you to go pound sand?

 

[Smarta$$]

But doesn't the union prove your point? They know we can't and rarely leave because of our seniority system. If you could walk with two weeks notice taking your type and currency with you would they be so quick to tell you to go pound sand?

Well, who says the next airline has to hire you? If they have 2 applicants for one job, one with a high seniority number and high salary requirement, and someone that is new to the 121 world, with the minimum requirements, but would accept 1/3 of the pay?

They don't HAVE to hire you just because you quit airline ABC with seniority...

Its a bad idea. We are labor, nothing more. Sorry to burst your bubble, you're not management or executive level. You are part number 3432345. Nothing more.

 

[igneousy2]

But doesn't the union prove your point? They know we can't and rarely leave because of our seniority system. If you could walk with two weeks notice taking your type and currency with you would they be so quick to tell you to go pound sand?

That won't work in our occupation because we have no way to back up what we're worth. We would always be in competition with some young kid with shiny new jet syndrome. We have not convinced the customers that our experience matters. If anything we have done more to convince them that it doesn't. And if the customers aren't convinced that it matters...then no management will ever pay for it.

Pilots as a group has gotten on managements side in saying things like "flying is safe", "total time doesn't matter", "if they passed the training and check-rides then all must be okay"...so if all of these things are true, how do we measure what we're worth. I don't have any violations or accidents?...okay, but so do you and 99% of the pilots out there.

Just look on FI on all the posts concerning qualification...for every measure of our qualification you have a large number of pilots that don't think it matters...total time, doesn't matter...military/civilian, doesn't matter...4 year degree no 4 year degree...doesn't matter...we fly wide-bodies-doesn't matter...we fly jets-doesn't matter...we fly approaches to CAT I minimus in some crazy terrain in some insane weather-doesn't matter you are just following the magenta line.

A salesman has his sales figures, a manager has some program he ran that generated X-revenue or saved X-dollars, a riveter can do so many rivets an hour, a welder can weld so many feet an hour,

So for a pilot if not seniority...then what?

 

[livin'thesim]

But doesn't the union prove your point? They know we can't and rarely leave because of our seniority system. If you could walk with two weeks notice taking your type and currency with you would they be so quick to tell you to go pound sand?

Sort of.

The problem is steeply-scaled longevity pay more than it is seniority.

Many pilots would change airlines and accept being junior again as long as they could make a livable wage that is not an insult to their professionalism.

There is no logical reason (other than tradition) for wage scales to skew so steeply with longevity. Steep pay scale increases started so that the senior could be subsidized by the junior. Just a land grab, really.

The union is both curse and blessing, for sure.