DEN Controllers Imprisoned.

[Cardinal]

Forbidden from leaving the tower. Hope you had a big breakfast.

http://www.denverpost.com/newsheadlines/ci_4604717

Really warms the heart.

 

[A Squared]

Well, at first blush, it seems a bit unreasonable, but then you think about it, and compare it to other jobs. Anyplace I ever worked for a wage didin't pay you for your lunch break . Normal working hours would be 0800 to 1700 with an hour unpaid lunch break, or perhaps 0800 to 1630 with a half hour unpaid lunch break. Now if the article is to be beleived, the FAA was pushing for exactly that, an 8.5 hour duty day with a half hour unpaid break. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and it's certainly very very common in the workplace. But, apparently (again, going by the article) the controllers wouldn't go for that arrangement, instead insisting on only being present at the facility for 8 hours and no more. The FAA's stance seems to be, OK, but we want you available the full 8 hours we're paying you for. Again, something that is pretty standard in any workplace. There is no indication that the controllers are being deprived of an opportunity to eat thier lunch. As I understand it, there are very generous allowances for breaks, as there should be, as working a position, I'm sure is a pretty intense activity.

So, you can bring your lunch, with the only restriction that you can't bring liquids and semi liquids. Unless you absolutely *have* to have applesauce for lunch, this shouldn't be too difficult to work around. Whatever drinks you need for the day can be purchased in the concourse (just arrive at the airport 10 minutes early) , or alternately, brought in in bulk by the managers, if you plan ahead a little. And once in the facility, the controllers will have ample time to eat those meals while on the clock. the only real inconvenience is not being able to leave hte facility to go purchase a meal from one of the vendors in the concourse. Sorry, this just doesn't sound like cruel and inhumane treatment to me. I realize that there is a loot of petty behaviour going on right now in ATC. I don't think that it is the exclusive domain of the FAA though.

 

[jeroom]

Sad and ridiculous...

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Well, at first blush, it seems a bit unreasonable, but then you think about it, and compare it to other jobs. Anyplace I ever worked for a wage didin't pay you for your lunch break . Normal working hours would be 0800 to 1700 with an hour unpaid lunch break, or perhaps 0800 to 1630 with a half hour unpaid lunch break. Now if the article is to be beleived, the FAA was pushing for exactly that, an 8.5 hour duty day with a half hour unpaid break. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and it's certainly very very common in the workplace. But, apparently (again, going by the article) the controllers wouldn't go for that arrangement, instead insisting on only being present at the facility for 8 hours and no more. The FAA's stance seems to be, OK, but we want you available the full 8 hours we're paying you for. Again, something that is pretty standard in any workplace. There is no indication that the controllers are being deprived of an opportunity to eat thier lunch. As I understand it, there are very generous allowances for breaks, as there should be, as working a position, I'm sure is a pretty intense activity.

So, you can bring your lunch, with the only restriction that you can't bring liquids and semi liquids. Unless you absolutely *have* to have applesauce for lunch, this shouldn't be too difficult to work around. Whatever drinks you need for the day can be purchased in the concourse (just arrive at the airport 10 minutes early) , or alternately, brought in in bulk by the managers, if you plan ahead a little. And once in the facility, the controllers will have ample time to eat those meals while on the clock. the only real inconvenience is not being able to leave hte facility to go purchase a meal from one of the vendors in the concourse. Sorry, this just doesn't sound like cruel and inhumane treatment to me. I realize that there is a loot of petty behaviour going on right now in ATC. I don't think that it is the exclusive domain of the FAA though.

A, if you were never a controller, then you have no idea. If anyone thinks the controllers are just sitting around BS-ing around and putting in a hour of work here and there, think again. Marion Blakely and the FAA management is sending the SS ATC system toward the iceberg and quicker than you know.
The forced 'contract' among other things and 'confining' the controllers to the facility????? If you can go eight hours with out food, good. The hassle they are making this to be is unimaginable. The fact that a controller has to go through security, throw half his food out right after the Argenbright 'stars' waltz through with theirs is beyond comprehension.
At my last facility we were 'off' from the terminal and didn't have to deal the
Globe wonders.
This is going to get worse and it will be seen on the our side of the radio and quickly. Why do you think EDCT's to ATL and other places pop up during 'clear and a million' weather??? Staffing. When some places are doing 6 day madatory weeks because of not enough personel, they are taking the retirement as soon as 56 rolls around and even sooner....

 

[Princedietrich]

I used to work at a job that was a straight up 8 hour day with no real lunch break included. All I could do was wait for a slow period during the day and chow on a slice of pizza or go quickly up the road to grab some Wendy's or something. But therein lies the difference between what I did and what these controllers did. I was able to bring my food with me, or go get it if necessary. These controllers are being denied that. We've all seen how the TSA can be at these checkpoints. They'll confiscate your lunch in a heartbeat just so they can eat it themselves. I actually saw a buddy of mine get a bag of cookies confiscated because the TSA screener wanted them, and she ADMITTED it to his FACE.

The ruling that was recently handed down stated that properly credentialed employees or personnel could present ID and go through the checkpoint exempt from the liquid ban, like uniformed crew members or Federales. Why is this different for controllers then? They would carry airport credentials, or at the very least an ATC ID of some sort. They should be allowed to flash the badge and take a can of microwaveable Chunky through the checkpoint.

The problem is that we've got all these TSA goons who are underqualified and barely trained and are riding high on a massive power trip. They don't know what they are doing and in some cases don't even know what planet they're on. The TSA needs to hire people that are more than 2 or 3 steps up the evolutionary ladder from a macaque, and then needs to properly train them in just who exactly IS a federal employee or an airport employee. It's the same way at military bases since more and more of them are going to contract rent-a-cops at the gates rather than using MPs.

 

[A Squared]

A, if you were never a controller, then you have no idea. If anyone thinks the controllers are just sitting around BS-ing around and putting in a hour of work here and there, think again.

Nope. Typical childish attempt to put words into someone elses' mouth. I never said that controllers were just sitting around BS'ing all day. In fact, if you had made any attempt to read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I commented that working traffic is a pretty demanding task, and that there *should* be breaks from that. That doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of breaks, that was my point, not to complain that the controllers are lazy and underworked, but to point out that there is plenty of time in the day when the controller is not on position. I've seen the percentage somewhere of just how much time in an 8 hour shift is actually spent working traffic. I don't recall the number off the top of my head, but it's surprisingly low. Now (I'm going to say this again, because obviously you have some reading comprehension challanges) I'm not saying that theye have an *unreasonable* amount of breaks, and I know that much of thier time off position is taken up with administrative tasks, training, and other stuff. But, having had close personal accuaintences who are ATC, I'm aware that a controller does have a fair amount of break time, more so that most jobs. My point, which you completely missed, was not that controllers are lazy, overpaid, underworked, or whatever other fantasy you imagined, but that the image of a poor controller chanied to his scope, his only nourishment being furtive nibbles of a saltine cracker which he smuggled through security is also inaccurate.

If you can go eight hours with out food, good.

Oh, puuuulease. If the controllers are going eight hours without food, it is thier own fault for not having taking the initiative to provide themselves with food for the day. Certainly dealing with the morons at security and ther arbitrary and capricious behavior would try the patience of a saint. No doubt that is irritating and frustrating. But claiming that they have to "go eight hours without food" is absurd and intellectually dishonest.

 

[A Squared]

I used to work at a job that was a straight up 8 hour day with no real lunch break included. All I could do was wait for a slow period during the day and chow on a slice of pizza or go quickly up the road to grab some Wendy's or something. But therein lies the difference between what I did and what these controllers did. I was able to bring my food with me, or go get it if necessary. These controllers are being denied that. We've all seen how the TSA can be at these checkpoints. They'll confiscate your lunch in a heartbeat just so they can eat it themselves. I actually saw a buddy of mine get a bag of cookies confiscated because the TSA screener wanted them, and she ADMITTED it to his FACE.

The ruling that was recently handed down stated that properly credentialed employees or personnel could present ID and go through the checkpoint exempt from the liquid ban, like uniformed crew members or Federales. Why is this different for controllers then? They would carry airport credentials, or at the very least an ATC ID of some sort. They should be allowed to flash the badge and take a can of microwaveable Chunky through the checkpoint.

The problem is that we've got all these TSA goons who are underqualified and barely trained and are riding high on a massive power trip. They don't know what they are doing and in some cases don't even know what planet they're on. The TSA needs to hire people that are more than 2 or 3 steps up the evolutionary ladder from a macaque, and then needs to properly train them in just who exactly IS a federal employee or an airport employee. It's the same way at military bases since more and more of them are going to contract rent-a-cops at the gates rather than using MPs.

Princedetrich,

I don't disagree with anything you said. In fact, the world woud be a better place is half thos folks were taken out and gassed like feral kittens. However, that is a completely seperate issue than the question of tightening down the policies at the tower in Denver.

 

[Princedietrich]

Princedetrich,

I don't disagree with anything you said. In fact, the world woud be a better place is half thos folks were taken out and gassed like feral kittens. However, that is a completely seperate issue than the question of tightening down the policies at the tower in Denver.

Oh I agree, the TSA thing is essentially an additional symptom to the overall disease here. I know that there are towers out there in the world that are not behind a TSA mandated security checkpoint. At these facilities, I'd wager that a controller could bring in a full blown crock pot turkey dinner if he or she so chose. I was bringing it up in this case because the tower in question is behind one of these checkpoints. If my employer told me that I was not permitted to leave my building during the course of my shift, I'd have no problem with it since I can bring in food and have a relatively easy trip to the porcelain office. But if I were working at a facility that didn't permit me to bring in a lunch, or had systems that made it prohibitively difficult, I'd raise a stink over it. Sorry if I was ambiguous or overly anti-TSA there.

 

[A Squared]

Sorry if I was ambiguous or overly anti-TSA there.

No, not at all. I just wanted to emphasize that the problems you speak of are peripheral to the issue. In fact, it should be noted that according to the article, the tower management is attempting to work with the controllers in working around the unneccesary problems the TSA is creating. That seems to not have been noticed.

 

[Princedietrich]

We should have a few cases of Starbucks and pot pies delivered to the tower. Not only will they be well fed, but wired on caff.

 

[smellthejeta]

Just so we're clear, this isn't a matter of what the controllers "agreed" or "didn't agree" to. The FAA can impose whatever they want on the controllers, and they've already proven it with the compensation and mandatory six-day work weeks.

And the adminstrator WANTS to encourage not-yet-hired controllers to walk in the door of their assigned facility? I have to wonder if she's intentionally tanking the system to force the privatization of it.