Dems & Reps

[UpNDownGuy]

STOP!

I view the Bible as being the Word of God, and the Catholic church does not encourage its folowers to either learn, or even read the Bible.

I won't waste my time debating this absurd statement. You clearly know less than zero about the Catholic faith. I am merely writing to inform you that, as a lifelong Catholic, I find your statements concerning my Church incredibly offensive. Please confine your remarks to some other topic.

 

[AeroBoy]

I still stand by my statement that organized religion causes factions and war. And this applies to both those that do and don't believe in the Bible. Anyone remember the Crusades? 9/11? Etc....

The fact is that not everyone believes what the Bible says. That is everyone's individual right. It's when we think that our way is the right way (ie-organized religion) and try to convert everyone else to our way of thinking does the factions start.

All one has to do is look at the Catholics, Presbysterians and Protestants. They all believe in the Bible, but they all see things very differently. And they all feel that their way is the right way (Catholics more so on this issue). Then there's the whole Catholicism vs Muslim vs Jewish vs Hindu vs atheist thing I'm not even going to touch with a 1,000-foot pole.

Only when we stop pushing our own religious beliefs down other people's throats will war really stop.

 

[Timebuilder]

You clearly know less than zero about the Catholic faith. I am merely writing to inform you that, as a lifelong Catholic, I find your statements concerning my Church incredibly offensive.

First, you have no idea about the experience I have had with Catholic doctrine, do you? You don't know about my knowlege of the Balitmore Catechism, or the conversations I have had with priests, parishoners, and lay teachers.

I find the misleading of millions of people incredibly offensive. I find the attitude that only the church can interpret scripture offensive. I find the abuse of untold numbers of children offensive. I find the placement of works in place of grace through faith offensive, as if contribution to a CYO fund will curry favor with God. I find the damage done to the cause of Christ by events like the Spanish Inquisition offensive.

But most of all, I find that you failed to mention faith in Christ offensive. I think you might be putting your faith in the Church instead. That is a mistake.

 

[Super 80]

Originally by AeroBoy:
Only when we stop pushing our own religious beliefs down other people's throats will war really stop.

Now this is ridiculous. Presenting reasons for belief is not imposing a view on anyone.

Religious wars are not the leading cause of death due to war either. The various political factions of totalitarianism assembled under the humanist perspective like communism and socialism have killed far more and made the 20th century the bloodiest ever.

Furthermore, God does not instigate war, men do. And you while you can point to a host of religious wars involving Christianity, the common factor through history is one of defense.

The one religion that does impose itself on people at the point of a sword is Islam though. And they deny basic freedoms when their religion is the basis for their government.

While there are profound differences even between Christians, the point is there are different demominations with different outlooks and theological foundations. In the end, however, they are united in one thing that is the belief in Christ Jesus as the only means of Salvation.

All the religions in the world make exclusive claims. They cannot all be right, and they may all be wrong. But one thing is different about Christianity. While all the other religions say what you must do to enter 'heaven' only Christianity says it's all been done, and now all you have to do is to put your faith in the One whom God sent.

The results of which have made life-changing benefits for millions that have come to accept and believe in Jesus.

 

[Timebuilder]

the Catholic church does not encourage its followers to either learn, or even read the Bible.

Almost forgot.

I have never found a bible in a Catholic home. If you have one, that's great. Read it. Learn it. Then, compare the attitude of the priests that questioned Christ in the temple to the church structure today. You will, I think, see an eerie similarity to the Saducees and the Pharisees of Christ's time, rather than the apostles or the followers of Christ.

Once, I asked why there was no Bible in a home that purported to be a Christian home. I was told that the Church was the center of their spiritual life, and they didn't need a Bible. In fact, the Christian life centers around one's relationship with Jesus through faith in Him and knowlege of His Word. Once you spend time reading the Bible, you find a stark reality: we are never encourged to pray to ANYONE except God, not "saints", not Mary, no one else. There is not one directive from the Catechism in the Bible. In fact, I have covered the prohibition against repetitive prayers, such as the Our Father and Hail Mary in Matthew 6:7

And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Instead of being offended at what I say, ask yourself this: "am I offended by what Christ says?"

This is a personal spiritual crisis for many "lifelong Catholics". May God help you to see His light.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I knew any discussion of Republicans and Democrats would turn into a holy war eventually.

 

[Timebuilder]

When I was a democrat, government was my religion. It was a false religion, but it was a religion, none the less.

 

[surfnole]

I view the Bible as being the Word of God, and the Catholic church does not encourage its folowers to either learn, or even read the Bible.

I won't waste my time debating this absurd statement. You clearly know less than zero about the Catholic faith. I am merely writing to inform you that, as a lifelong Catholic, I find your statements concerning my Church incredibly offensive. Please confine your remarks to some other topic.

I agree with TimeBuilder on this one, although my views aren't as stringent. The Catholic church is a Christian church, but they don't emphasize bible study. I side with the protestant/reformed view on doctrinal issues.

I grew up in the Catholic church and my mom is Catholic and a Christian. Wasn't it as recently as the 1950s that the Catholic church stopped having mass in Latin? If they really wanted the masses to know the bible, why would the mass be in Latin?

The center of the Catholic church is the eucharist (communion), not bible study, prayer, fellowship or preaching. As long as you take the eucharist each week, you are golden.

If Catholic priests taught the Bible, there wouldn't be so many Catholics that oppose positions held by the pope, the bible and the church authority. Positions such as pro abortion, the belief in reincarnation (which my mom believes), the belief in in several paths to god etc.

At our local parish, the weekly sermon was not an exposition of the scriptures, but often a statement on various social issues of the day.

I will give credit to the Catholic church in this however, their *official* position on moral issues has not bent to the latest trends and opinions in society. I wish I could say the same for the mainline protestant churches or many of the Catholic parishioners.

 

[Timebuilder]

I have to agree with much of what you have said, also. The church structure seems to keep the parishoner at arm's length, almost under the authority of the church. Believers in Bible churchs see the leadership as being with them, not over them.

I don't hate my Catholic friends. I love them like a brother. This is also true of my liberal friends. If you care about someone, you want to share all you can about the insights you have gained by prayer, introspection, and experience. Christ commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves, and this is true no matter the subject. I care too much about America, her people, and what we stand for as a nation "under God" to fail to share these ideas. Since we are still a somewhat free country, you are free to gain from them or ignore them, as it suits you.

In any event, it is a waste of time to be upset or offended with me. If anything, be offended at what people have done to our country, and how some are misleading people, drawing them away from God's word.

 

[UpNDownGuy]

I am finished with this...

Timebuilder: You are right, it is pointless for me to be upset or offended by you. I have met you and your kind many, many times. In fact, I live right next door to you. My neighbors are "good Christians", as they like to tell everyone in earshot. He is a career military officer; she is a schoolteacher. They have rousing sing-alongs at all hours of the night, religiously attend church and bible study, and routinely plaster my front door with advertisements for their church. Their son is ten years old, and is easily the biggest troublemaker in the neighborhood. As such a good "Christian", he feels that God wants him to punish the wicked children (always much younger and smaller, of course) by beating them up if they happen to be of another faith. He also feels compelled to tell adults which ones will be going to hell (In case you're curious, my sister-in-law IS going to hell, but apparently I'm not. The fact that I'm a fairly large man may have something to do with his withholding his opinion in my case, as this little monster is a coward through and through). He didn't get these ideas by himself. His loving "Christian" parents taught him this hate and intolerence. It's quite clear they often discuss these topics as a family. "The Jews are hellbound; it's ok to beat up their kids". "Those Oriental kids don't go to our church; push him in the mud". You would feel right at home with these people.


You are a "Christian" for exactly the same reasons, and with exactly as much legitimacy, as David Duke. For folks like you, the Bible isn't the inspired Word of God. It's a club, to be used to beat your opponents, or anyone else who dares to hold a conflicting opinion or worship at a different church. "The Bible says we can kill all blacks, I just know it does. God revealed His plan for an all-white America to me in a dream..."



But most of all, I find that you failed to mention faith in Christ offensive. I think you might be putting your faith in the Church instead.

You didn't attack my personal belief in Jesus. You chose to attack the church at which I worship. I am real certain I can guess what denomination you are, but I am not going to stoop to attacking your church. That would do a genuine disservice to the real Christians who, through no fault of their own, just happen to share the same denomination with you. I will let you in a little Bible trivia though. It's something you apparently missed in your exhaustive, scholary reading. It's called the "Teachings of Christ", and it's contained in a part of the Bible called the New Testament. It might be worth your while to go over, and see if there isn't some way to apply some of his teachings to your daily life, because it's obvious you skipped over that part. Especially concentrate on "casting of stones"...see if you can find where Jesus mentions casting the first stone. Think of it as a Biblical "Where's Waldo?". I think you'll find it applicable to your life.

I don't know what happened to you to make you like you are today. You are bitter, opinionated, intolerant and hateful, with no sign of charity whatsoever. I feel sorry for you, quite honestly. In any event, I am through wasting my time writing to you, or reading anything that you post. I quite honestly have better things to do with my time.







Surfnole: I am curious in what crazy parish you grew up in...I have never heard of such things. Pro-abortion priests? Are you kidding? Let me answer some of the points you raised:



I grew up in the Catholic church and my mom is Catholic and a Christian. Wasn't it as recently as the 1950s that the Catholic church stopped having mass in Latin? If they really wanted the masses to know the bible, why would the mass be in Latin?


Yes, the Mass was in Latin. And everbody spoke Latin. My Dad and Mom both learned Latin before they were nine years old. Under the old system, you could go into any Catholic church anywhere in the world and still understand the Mass.



The center of the Catholic church is the eucharist (communion), not bible study, prayer, fellowship or preaching. As long as you take the eucharist each week, you are golden.


Again, my experience was a little different. We had 1 hour of Bible study every day in school (In addition to Mass). If you didn't go to the Catholic school, you had Cathecism classes to make up for it. As you can imagine, we tended to pray quite a lot in school. As for fellowship, haven't you heard of the CYO? My summers were spent going to camps, outings, hiking...you name it. I was in two different parishes growing up, and both were led by dynamic priests. In my church today, the opportunities are endless. Everything from hosting a pancake breakfast (which I am next month) to dinners and dances, weekly prayer meetings, singles events, etc. As for the last sentence, There is quite a bit more to being "golden" than simply going to Mass once a week, as I'm sure you understand.


At our local parish, the weekly sermon was not an exposition of the scriptures, but often a statement on various social issues of the day.


Again, all I can give you is my experience. I am now in my 7th parish. In my current parish, and virtually the same with the previous ones, the priest uses the sermon to apply the Gospel to our everyday lives. He usually tries to explain what God means, and then gives examples of how to best make our way. In other words, don't walk out the door on Sunday, and on Monday do exactly what God doesn't want you to do.


I am sorry your experience was so bizarre. I can't account for it, but I can assure you it isn't the usual one.

Take care.

 

[414Flyer]

Re: I am finished with this...

Timebuilder:

You are a "Christian" for exactly the same reasons, and with exactly as much legitimacy, as David Duke. For folks like you, the Bible isn't the inspired Word of God. It's a club, to be used to beat your opponents, or anyone else who dares to hold a conflicting opinion or worship at a different church. "The Bible says we can kill all blacks, I just know it does. God revealed His plan for an all-white America to me in a dream..."

(snip)

I don't know what happened to you to make you like you are today. You are bitter, opinionated, intolerant and hateful, with no sign of charity whatsoever. I feel sorry for you, quite honestly. In any event, I am through wasting my time writing to you, or reading anything that you post. I quite honestly have better things to do with my time.

Now come on, dont you think you took the rhetoric a bit far?
You have accused him of hate, made comparisons with David Duke, intolerance, racism, and about everything else.

Big deal..every demonination has disagreements of doctrine and structure with the others, its what separates them.

I am mostly agnostic, but I call it as I see it. I respect him and his passion for his beliefs. But I think all the labels you apply to him are not only wrong, but irresponsible. I do not think he has said anything like that..Just expressed his views.

Just because you might have crappy neighbors who are like the Flanders on meth, doesnt mean Timebuilder is that way.

 

[mar]

Perhaps an incomplete experience

UpandDownGuy--if you're still here. I share your frustration with the intolerance of others.

But I'm not sure I would characterize Surfnole's experience with the Catholic church as "bizarre". Incomplete perhaps.

After all, one shouldn't receive communion without first making a confession. I think this point is a fairly important one when comparing and contrasting Protestant and Catholic doctrine.

The *fundamental* difference as I see it is the role of the priest as vicar, the confessional and the communion. These just don't exist in Protestant-style Christianity.

By the way, has it ever occcured to anyone that Jesus was in fact a Liberal? A revolutionary? A heretic?

He was such a threat to the established order that it wasn't enough to kill him. No, they mocked him with his crown of thorns, the King of Jews, as he died on the cross.

How typical of most martyrs.

Yes, a little more tolerance would be much appreciated.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Re: Perhaps an incomplete experience

By the way, has it ever occcured to anyone that Jesus was in fact a Liberal? A revolutionary? A heretic?

He was such a threat to the established order that it wasn't enough to kill him. No, they mocked him with his crown of thorns, the King of Jews, as he died on the cross.

Yeah it has occurred to me. It has also occurred to me not to label Jesus with a modern political philosophy. Was he a liberal? You could validly argue this. Was he a conservative? You could validly argue that. Alls I know is He was God coming down to the level of human flesh and then was rejected by most of his creation. As is the case in much of the world today. And Jesus is also God's hand being extended to us (in our own environment as a fleshly being), available for whoever wants to grab onto it. That is who Jesus is/was.

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder: You are right, it is pointless for me to be upset or offended by you. I have met you and your kind many, many times.

Ah, I see. Instead of dealing with what I wrote in an insightful and engaging manner, you are going to attempt to assassinate my character. This is called an ad hominum attack, and it usually happens when you have little of substance and a great deal of anger.

Any reasonable person already knows that your comments regarding David Duke and Jews, Blacks, and Asians have nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible of Christianity. If you neighbor's child is causing trouble in the neighborhood, call the police. Do the same if your neighbors are disturbing the peace after hours.

I don't know what happened to you to make you like you are today. You are bitter, opinionated, intolerant and hateful, with no sign of charity whatsoever. I feel sorry for you, quite honestly. In any event, I am through wasting my time writing to you, or reading anything that you post. I quite honestly have better things to do with my time.

My friend this is a lot of hatred that you have to deal with. Either you have not read my posts or you are clinging to a preconceived idea of what a Christian believes. If you attend some kind of a church, ANY kind, I recommend you get counseling. Failing that, I recommend you sit down with the pastor of a Bible church and at least get your facts straight. I am embarassed for you.

 

[mar]

I didn't say he was a Democrat!

Hey Flybuddy--Thanks for at least giving the concept a shot.

But, the word 'liberal' is just a word. It's not a modern political philosophy, ok?

I admit, I shouldn't have capitalized it in my previous post.

 

[Timebuilder]

By the way, has it ever occcured to anyone that Jesus was in fact a Liberal? A revolutionary? A heretic?

I'm sure these thoughts have occured to a great many people. However, if they are focused on these questions, they are missing who He really was.

God, the Son.

 

[Super 80]

Re: Perhaps an incomplete experience

I share your frustration with the intolerance of others.

Being able to see things in black and white, and to be able to decide what is right and wrong on a Biblical basis still allows someone to be quite tolerant of diverse opinions.

But I'm not sure I would characterize Surfnole's experience with the Catholic church as "bizarre". Incomplete perhaps.

After all, one shouldn't receive communion without first making a confession. I think this point is a fairly important one when comparing and contrasting Protestant and Catholic doctrine.

The *fundamental* difference as I see it is the role of the priest as vicar, the confessional and the communion. These just don't exist in Protestant-style Christianity.

While I have serveral criticisms of the Catholic Church, as a vehicle to find Jesus, people still can find Him in worship there. However, some doctrines can detract from the commands God does give us for our worship.

If any Catholic is interested you can 'pm' me and maybe we can have a discussion.

By the way, has it ever occcured to anyone that Jesus was in fact a Liberal? A revolutionary? A heretic?

He was such a threat to the established order that it wasn't enough to kill him. No, they mocked him with his crown of thorns, the King of Jews, as he died on the cross.

How typical of most martyrs.

Yes, a little more tolerance would be much appreciated.

From a Bible basis, I have a real problem with painting Christ as a political entitiy. Christ overcame the world, even before He went to the cross. He was not of the world and said to give to Caesar (the political ruler of the day) what was his and to give to God what was His.

Jesus did not start a revolt in the flesh. He was not what the Pharisees thought because they confused the Messiah of the Second Advent with Jesus' coming. That is why Jesus stopped reading Isaiah 61:2 in mid-sentence at the start of His ministy in Luke. Now when the Day of the Lord begins, lookout.

Jesus was NOT a heretic. As a matter of fact, He observed the Scriptures and He did not sin. Jesus maintained that Scripture could not be broken and so stayed true to the Scripture which was in large part the Law and the Prophets. But beyond any measure of the 613 commandments in the Old Testament, Jesus knew the heart of the issue was love.

So if you want to have more tolerance, that is fine, but I will not tolerate this heretical teaching of Jesus as a worldly person bent on physical domination against Scripture.

 

[Timebuilder]

While I have serveral criticisms of the Catholic Church, as a vehicle to find Jesus, people still can find Him in worship there. However, some doctrines can detract from the commands God does give us for our worship.

The danger is believing in a works based salvation, which does not exist, instead of having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you believe that you will go to heaven because you go to confession, take communion, attend mass, light candles, or any other such thing, then you are just plain wrong in that assumption. Christ himself specifically laid out the plan of salvation. You can accept that plan while sitting in a Catholic church, but no more so than while waiting for the number one train at Penn Station. Don't let the incense and prayers distract you from this most important point.

 

[Super 80]

The danger is believing in a works based salvation, which does not exist, instead of having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Yes, this is true. Paul wrote about the futility of having salvation based on works and rejected it on the basis that no one could boast how they earned their way into Heaven.

Salvation is granted by faith. It is because Abraham believed what God had said that he gained eternal life. We will see him in his glorifed body during Christ's reign on earth.

But while John laid out Christ's words that by faith you will be saved, and Paul said if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart you will be saved. and James the half-brother to Jesus (oops) said a faith without works is dead.

Are these at odds?

No.

If you believe in God, and believe in the One He sent then you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that will affect your life because you are no longer a slave to sin, but are a bond-servant to Christ and you will give up the ways of the world you were called out of and adopt Godly living.

Will you be perfect as Jesus commanded us to be to earn our way into Heaven? No.

Because it is not by works that you are saved, less any one boast.

The measure of a Christian is not how perfect they are, but how far they have come from where they were.

If you have faith in God and love Jesus, what you will do will change as you reflect the light that is within you and let it shine for all the world to see and so your faith will be manifest.

The son that does as the father says is the son that follows his father's commands--MT 21:28-31.

 

[mar]

For Super 80 and Timebuilder

Super 80--As I responded to Flybuddy, I was merely using the term 'liberal' rhetorically. Like you I think it would be inappropriate to put modern political labels on Christ.

And on second thought perhaps 'heretic' was not the best choice of words--it's inaccurate at best.

But I have also given some thought on Jesus as a sinner and have decided to not even push that issue because as we've all learned recently one just cannot argue with another's faith in the word of the Bible.

I mean, forget about how Jesus lost his temper with the money changers and certain aspects of his relationship with Mary Magdalene.

After a brief internet search on these topics I concluded that the faithful will always be able to assign some redemptive value to any perceived flaw of Christ by the skeptic.

Therefore, I appreciate your sincere response to my post.

And Timebuilder, what can I say that hasn't already been said except that works of art by the faithful only serve to glorify god and the church.

Of course both you and I can find exceptions to that statement.

But for me it's fairly easy to identify the truly righteous and the work they produce out of passion as opposed to those who are so uncertain of their time on Earth that they pass a lifetime manufacturing points to cash in at the Eleventh Hour.

I'm sorry that you cannot study a work like the Pieta' or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and not see anything more than the result of someone who was trying to cash in his chips at the Eleventh Hour.

Even I, the bold-faced skeptic, can let down my guard for just a few minutes and be humbled by the works of a man endowed with such a talent that he spent a lifetime dedicated to telling the story of Christ in the most beautiful way he could.

If only more of us could manage such refinement.

Have a look and tell me this is a selfish work.

The Pieta by Michelangelo Buonarroti