Dems & Reps

[doh]

mr. irrelevent,
Thanks for helping out. They both hate each other so much, they don't care what the truth is any more. One of the big reasons why we didn't get a real pension at CMR is the tax law. It is set up to make defined benefit pensions unattractive to corporations. Congress could change that but then they would have less scare they could throw around about losing social security. That means less power over our lives and they couldn't live with that!

 

[Super 80]

a little word study

The whole point of John's conversation on the topic is to point out that it's NOT future tense, it's PRESENT tense, then, ~2,000 years ago. Note he said it IS the last time, and even NOW are there many antichrists.

This is the NASB version; it has perhaps the best word for word translation of the Greek to modern English:

1JN 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

“antichrist” is in the singular. “The lack of the article (the) stresses the category of quality.” –Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament by Fritz Riennecker/Cleon Rogers

“is coming” comes from erchetai, the root being erchomai meaning come. This verb is in the present tense, middle voice and indicative mood. The present tense indicates a continuous type of action and when combined with the indicative mood indicates something going on at the present time. The middle voice shows the subject acts in his own interest or behalf.

Here John is stressing the quality of antichrist and is saying he is present and in a continuous state. This is confirmed by Satan being cast down by the Angels in the parallel account describing the great dragon in Revelation 12:7-13:1. Previously in the parallel account of the woman (the nation of Israel) in Revelation 12:1-6, at Christ’s birth, Satan had access to ‘heaven.’ Sometime during Christ’s ministry Satan falls, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven”—Luke 10:18. This falling or displacement out of heaven where Satan was able to have an audience with God (Job) is a summary event in the Greek and thus is specific and unique. This makes Luke 10:18 and Revelation 12:7-9 multiple accounts of the same event. Now Satan is at work in this world knowing “his time is short.” Thus John stresses the hour as well a (figure of speech).

Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken, and this interpretation does keep it whole.

The second use of antichrists is in the plural. “have appeared” comes from gegovnasin which is the inflected form of ginomai which means to come into being, to happen, to become. gegovnasin is in the perfect tense, active voice and indicative mood. The perfect tense says it has been completed and is continuing. The active voice shows the subject is performer of the action and the indicative mood means it is a statement of fact from the perspective of the writer, John.

During the first century, the Church was under intense pressure not only from the Pharisees against their own, but also by Rome. Meanwhile, heretical teaching was rampant and the most common form was Gnosticism, or special knowledge. The use of the plural does describe a condition of men as John explains later in 1JN 2:22. So I think you are correct to describe that as characteristic of being against God although it is not used as an adjective.

 

[Super 80]

and now back to the future

Back to the end times thing. Do you believe there are major events that must occur between now and the rapture? (I perceive that you do, but I may be mistaken.) If so, then you feel pretty safe that it won't be tonight, right? If I'm still on track with you, how can you explain that the second coming will be like a thief in the night, and we should always be watchful, prepared? If there are events that must occur first, why should we bother being ready now? In my mind "I know it's not now" doesn't fit with "we can never know when."

In a nutshell, yes. Several events must precede the Rapture of the Church. This does not mean it will not come like a thief, look at the examples of the Churches in Revelation. Not only do these Churches describe physical bodies in the first century, but each has a future promise past this present age. In addition the Churches can be thought to describe the various overall characteristics of the Church age over these 2000 years. But since each style of worship exists from the first century into the future, while the Churches go in turn, each style of worship can be found at any time through the whole period. If your style of worship is like the Church of Sardis, indeed the coming of Christ will overtake you like a thief. That is why I need to personally make sure my style of worship is like that of Philadelphia.

There will be false christs (notice the plural), wars, famine and disease as Jesus said. These are not the end times, but the beginnings of birth pains. Such things must be. This also aligns very well with the first four Seals and they can be thought of as being forces unleashed on the world in order to create conditions that are "ripe" for the end times. The last terrible nation has yet to be formed.

The seventieth 'seven' starts with the antichrist confirming the covenant with many, ostensibly with Israel as that is the focus of Daniel 9:24-27. It starts 42 months where God has given authority (God is always sovereign) to the antichrist. God will protect the nation of Israel from the antichrist's oppression during the first half week. So the antichrist will persecute her offspring, the Christians instead. Towards the end of the first half week the antichrist rushes out like a flood from Daniel 11:40-45. He pitches his tent at the Holy Mountain (used only to describe the hill Jerusalem sits on) which is the same description Luke uses at 21:20. At mid week an abomination occurs. He "swiftly" (which is a translation of wing in Daniel 9:27 like the swiftness of the flood from Daniel 11:40) sets up an idol of himself in the temple that is still to be built described in Ezekiel 40:1-43:9. The false prophet (the beast of the land - possibly from Israel) reinforces the antichrist and requires all to receive an impression (mark) or they cannot buy or sell.

This general pattern of the antichrist reaching his zenith in rebellion, the removal of the Church and His resultant judgment follows the words of Daniel 9:27, the abomination causes desolation and desolation will be poured out on him (that makes desolate). This is also described in Daniel 12:1 where in response to the abomination we can see Mikael (literally -who is like God) arising. Daniel 12:1 describes a time of distress followed by the deliverance of all those in the Book of Life.

Jesus references this same mid-week point in the Olivet discourses in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Jesus describes this time as being unequaled (thus specific and unique) and being a great distress or tribulation. If these days were not shortened, none of the Christians would live through it. People will be actively searching for Jesus and not find Him in the desert or the inner rooms. You can see that for a three and half year period, the midweek point and some nebulous time afterward, there is plenty of need for patient endurance for the Christian.

Jesus then tells us immediately after the distress of those days there will be a sun/moon/star event. This is what Zechariah described: On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light. -ZEC 14:6 Ezekiel says the same thing but addresses it to the unbelieving nations: When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. -EZE 32:7

This is the same day described in Revelation I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. -REV 6:12

During this, the 144,000 are sealed and three angels make their announcements (Rev 14:1-12) Then like the ten virgins waiting for the Bridegroom we see the gathering that Jesus talks about in the Olivet Discourse; The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. -Rev 6:14 Isaiah described this as well: In the evening, sudden terror! Before the morning, they are gone! -ISA 17:14 In the parallel account of the seventieth 'seven' (Rev 13 through 16) the harvest occurs in chapter 14. Evidence for the Rapture occurs in the Seal accounts in sequential fashion after the sun/moon/star event as the great multitude appears in God's temple in heaven and it is the Elder that says these have come out of the Great Tribulation and washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb just Jesus spoke of two thousand years before.

After a space of half an hour, all hell breaks loose and that will continue until the end of the seventieth 'seven' as God pronounces judgment on the nations (including the nation of Israel as the OT prophets have spoken of the Day of the Lord.) and literally pours out His wrath. But God will save a remnant of His people as He always does. They go into the Millennial Period. Daniel 12:2 describes the end of the thousand years and like Matthew 25:31 and Rev 20:12-13 describes a time when there is a heavenly judgment.

We Christians can be part of the Rapture at any moment because it is only as far away as our death. And that can happen at any time. Remember the dead in Christ rise first, so if you lose your life by maintaining your faith in a time of trial, you will gain everlasting life, and get a six foot head start on those that are still left alive.

 

[doh]

Now really,I meant for this thread to be about how neither party is particularly honest nor are they very labor friendly. They simply wish to have power over our mortal lives. The religion thing wasn't my idea. Can't we all just pray for each other and kick some political butt together?

 

[WrightAvia]

I hear you doh. I have concerns with separation of religion and state. But as for people people of religion in general...carry on.

 

[TonyC]

Re: and now back to the future

In a nutshell, yes. Several events must precede the Rapture of the Church. This does not mean it will not come like a thief, look at the examples of the Churches in Revelation. Not only do these Churches describe physical bodies in the first century, but each has a future promise past this present age. In addition the Churches can be thought to describe the various overall characteristics of the Church age over these 2000 years. But since each style of worship exists from the first century into the future, while the Churches go in turn, each style of worship can be found at any time through the whole period. If your style of worship is like the Church of Sardis, indeed the coming of Christ will overtake you like a thief. That is why I need to personally make sure my style of worship is like that of Philadelphia.

Ephesians 4
4 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism
6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Ephesians 1
22 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 "Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

So, how many churches are there? Christ has one body, and that body is His church - - sounds to me like there's only one church.

You seem to be well-versed in Greek. Is it possible that the seven groups of believers mentioned in Revelation were congregations of the same One church?

Let me make sure that I read you right on one last point. Am I to understand that the assertion by Christ that the judgment will come as a thief in the night - - no man knoweth the hour - - only applies to people who worship in a certain style?

Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Was Christ not speaking to everyone?

 

[Super 80]

Re: Re: and now back to the future

Was Christ not speaking to everyone?

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

God says Churches in the plural to each of the seven Churches. While we are all one body there are several different types.

Seems to me that Christ is speaking to all the Churches. There are differences between the members of the body.

There are the 144,000. There are those that sleep in the Lord. There are those that live and believe in the Lord, and there are those that are left behind and so complete the fifth Seal.

God will come like a thief and to those that practice an unbelieving faith to them it will come suddenly.

Do you have God placed comfortably in one hour on Sunday? Do you think the rest of the week is yours to live as the culture does? Maybe your faith needs to be re-examined.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: Re: and now back to the future

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

God says Churches in the plural to each of the seven Churches. While we are all one body there are several different types.

Seems to me that Christ is speaking to all the Churches. There are differences between the members of the body.

I quoted Christ in Luke and asked you if He was speaking to everyone, and you jump to Revelation. I really wasn't looking for anything complicated, just a simple answer to a simple question:

Was Christ, in Luke 12:40 talking to everyone?

When you refer to seven churches, I assume you're quoting from Revelation, but I'm not sure. You see, it's John who wrote to the "seven churches which are in Asia." (Rev 1:4)

In a book chocked full of symbolism and mystery, why do you choose to assign a literal value to the number 12 squared times a thousand? (144,000) Can you be sure that seven is a literal number, and not symbolic of something more fundamental?

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people are intent on discarding simple interpretations in favor of unreasonably complex ones.

 

[mar]

Remember me? I'm the atheist

Personally, my interest in this thread is merely curiosity. I don't buy any of it 'cause I happen to think if there is one god he'd be a mite more clear and specific.

These parables are sure interesting though.

By the way, if you happen to follow Italian politics you'd realize that The Anti-Christ has already arrived.

Silvio Berlusconi, a man of lawlessness as he happens to conveniently change laws whenever he gets in trouble, is also the current President of the EU.

How about that for coincidence? Not only that but he lives in Rome. Actually he's from Milan but that's close enough for the doomsayers!

Peace!

PS--Doh. I agree. The Dems and Repubs suck buttermilk.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me." As far as how to connect with God, I don't know how much clearer it could be? The other stuff that TonyC and Super80 are going through isn’t necessary to figure out God and what his main message to us is. Now remember I am not trying to turn anything into a religious debate/argument/whatever. I appreciate your input and was just making a friendly comment on it.

Ohh and here are some other specific verses (to name just a few)
(Romans 8)- 1So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2For the power[1] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you[2] through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death. 3The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plan to save us. He sent his own Son in a human body like ours, except that ours are sinful. God destroyed sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us[3] who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

(Isaiah 44:6) - "This is what the LORD, Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty, says: I am the First and the Last; there is no other God. 7Who else can tell you what is going to happen in the days ahead? Let them tell you if they can and thus prove their power. Let them do as I have done since ancient times. 8Do not tremble; do not be afraid. Have I not proclaimed from ages past what my purposes are for you? You are my witnesses--is there any other God? No! There is no other Rock--not one!"

(1 John 1:1)- 1The one who existed from the beginning[1] is the one we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is Jesus Christ, the Word of life. 2This one who is life from God was shown to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and announce to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was shown to us. 3We are telling you about what we ourselves have actually seen and heard, so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

(John 3:18)- 18"There is no judgment awaiting those who trust Him. But those who do not trust Him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God.

(Hebrews 6:16 )- 16When people take an oath, they call on someone greater than themselves to hold them to it. And without any question that oath is binding. 17God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind. 18So God has given us both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can take new courage, for we can hold on to his promise with confidence.
19This confidence is like a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain of heaven into God's inner sanctuary. 20Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the line of Melchizedek.

So why is that other stuff (like what TonyC and Super80 are discussing) in the Bible? To make us aware of the final chapter of this world and to make us aware of the awesomeness of God. And it is good they are discussing it because iron sharpens iron. They are digging deep into their faith seeking the truth (hopefully) about what the context of the verses mean. The Bible is one of the few books that can be very very simple and spelled out while at the same time consume an entire lifetime of diligent study and still not be able to figure it out 100%. The stuff we need to know is what is spelled out clearly. The other stuff is just part of the complexity of our Lord! I cited those verses just so you can see there are some verses that are pretty straight forward as far as context is concerned. I once again say that I am not trying to convert you to my way of thinking or change your beliefs; I am just showing you a few verses in the Bible.

 

[414Flyer]

I was so hoping for a Cubs vs Red Sox World Series, and it came so close to happening

 

[Super 80]

by way of explanation on a small point

FlyBuddy has it right. The main point of the Gospel accounts is to believe in the One whom God sent, Jesus. After that, there is a life time of study in the Word, but it does not replace the simple truth that by faith in Christ Jesus are we saved.

Tony,

I will attempt to answer your two posts as succinctly as possible. However, the fine degree of delineation we're discussing is difficult to make very simple. It does not mean either of us is wrong, but it does show there can be varying degrees of looking at an issue within Christian thought without that disagreement voiding the essential truth of the Gospel.

So, how many churches are there? Christ has one body, and that body is His church - - sounds to me like there's only one church.

Essentially yes, there is one body. This is the great multitude found in Revelation. These are those from Adam's time up that point that are in the Book of Life.

In the respect though that we will all be one, there are many different types of us. Remember the parable of the workers hired during various parts of the day? When they went to get paid, the master paid the last hired first a whole day's wage. So those that had been hired earlier thought they would get more. But they were paid what they were promised, a day's wage. No matter how many treasures you amass in heaven, the reward for faith is the same, life everlasting. So in that respect, we are all one.

You seem to be well-versed in Greek. Is it possible that the seven groups of believers mentioned in Revelation were congregations of the same One church?

The seven churches of Revelation were seven physical locations in what is now western Turkey. They were seven actual congregations of believers. On a map, these locations make a semicircle roughly from the seven o'clock position going clockwise in order to the four o'clock position.

Let me make sure that I read you right on one last point. Am I to understand that the assertion by Christ that the judgment will come as a thief in the night - - no man knoweth the hour - - only applies to people who worship in a certain style?

I would say, and it is my interpretation, that those that are spiritually dead will certainly be surprised at Christ's return. This describes more than just a certain "style" of worship.

I quoted Christ in Luke and asked you if He was speaking to everyone, and you jump to Revelation. I really wasn't looking for anything complicated, just a simple answer to a simple question:

Was Christ, in Luke 12:40 talking to everyone?

Peter asks this of Jesus and the answer Jesus gives is long and does not answer Peter directly but couches it in relational form of a manager of a house and a master. Jesus says in part from Luke 12:42-48 that he who knows the master's will and does not do it will suffer.

This also recalls the parable of the two sons, one that says he won't do as his father tells him but does, and the other that says he will but doesn't (MT 21:28-32).

I think the church of Sardis describes such a people. They say they know Jesus, but don't keep his commands. This type of people will be thrown out with the unbelievers (LK 12:47). This type of faith where you say one thing, but do another is spiritually dead (REV 3:1).

So the reason I quoted Revelation is that I see a connection between these parables and that church. To me, they describe the same type of self-professed Christian. So the lesson I hear is that I have to put my faith into gear and do something now that I know about Jesus.

When you refer to seven churches, I assume you're quoting from Revelation, but I'm not sure. You see, it's John who wrote to the "seven churches which are in Asia." (Rev 1:4)

Yes, I was. John is writing was what revealed from the Father through Jesus to John. That is what Revelation means in the Greek.

In a book chocked full of symbolism and mystery, why do you choose to assign a literal value to the number 12 squared times a thousand? (144,000) Can you be sure that seven is a literal number, and not symbolic of something more fundamental?

I take exception to this notion. Like I said, Revelation has much in it that explains mysteries. So, on the whole after studying it for so long, I don't think this is a fair assessment of the apocryphal style of writing that is done at the end of a three hundred year period when this style of writing was done.

It is said that John draws on Old Testament images and has put them down. However, if the OT prophetic images were true, and the book of Revelation is actually God through Jesus revealing to John as John testifies this book is, then is it any surprise they are repeated in form?

Look at Zechariah chapter four. Here is another vision of the Churches in a slightly different form. This vision is not explained as well as Jesus reveals to John. However, there is much in similarity to the vision of the Churches Jesus presents to John.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people are intent on discarding simple interpretations in favor of unreasonably complex ones.

The essential message of the Bible is simple. However, there are complex issues in any systematic theology. I think it goes back to the nature of God to want us to seek Him out. And the deeper I look, the more I find layers of meaning and understanding that enriches my appreciation of who God is, and He is an awesome God.

 

[Timebuilder]

It does not mean either of us is wrong, but it does show there can be varying degrees of looking at an issue within Christian thought without that disagreement voiding the essential truth of the Gospel.

This is the reason I decided to recuse myself from your duscussion. The gospel is clear enough, and others who have made a lifetime of study have found reasons to disagree about the coming events. Pre, mid, post? I don't care. Seven years or not? No big deal. No secret rapture? We shall see. There are many who have sudied well and decided that we can be caught up at any moment, that this will begin seven years of tribulation, and that during that time many who confess Christ will be killed. How and when these people will be ressurected is of no concern to me, since I have no doubt that God will make a righteous provision for them according to His will.

It is a mystery. One which we will eventually understand.

 

[surfnole]

6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people.

Thanks for that quote. I have never noticed that before, and it explains the prophecy of how the gospel must be preached to all nations first. I thought that literally, man had to go out to every tribe/nation etc.

As far as signs before the end times, what do you think this one is?

Mark 13

14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[1] standing where it[2] does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[1] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Is the above where people come up with the idea that the Jewish temple must be rebuilt? If not, where does that prophecy come from?

 

[AeroBoy]

Timebuilder,

Would the "child molesters" you are talking about include the Roman Catholic priests? Aren't these the same people who were "spreading the word of God" at the same time they were molesting children? Are these not the same people who were judging others as "satan worshippers" or "evil-doers" in public, while molesting children behind closed doors?

While we're on the subject of religion, doesn't "organized" religion itself cause war among different peoples? I mean all one has to do is look at Israel/Palestine or 9/11 to understand this fact.

 

[TonyC]

Re: by way of explanation on a small point

In the respect though that we will all be one, there are many different types of us. Remember the parable of the workers hired during various parts of the day? When they went to get paid, the master paid the last hired first a whole day's wage. So those that had been hired earlier thought they would get more. But they were paid what they were promised, a day's wage. No matter how many treasures you amass in heaven, the reward for faith is the same, life everlasting. So in that respect, we are all one.

The common thread between all those laborers is that they were obedient to the Master. They worked in the same vineyard, did what the Master commanded, and received the Master's reward. The only difference between them was the time at which they began their service. They did not serve in different vineyards or devise their own style of "obeying" the Master.

I would say, and it is my interpretation, that those that are spiritually dead will certainly be surprised at Christ's return. This describes more than just a certain "style" of worship.

Please don't be offended by my use of the word style - I got it from you, as you described the style of worship at Sardis and Philadelphia. I got the impression you believe worshipping in the style of the Philadelphia church will give you immunity from the "surprise factor" of judgment day.

But since each style of worship exists from the first century into the future, while the Churches go in turn, each style of worship can be found at any time through the whole period. If your style of worship is like the Church of Sardis, indeed the coming of Christ will overtake you like a thief. That is why I need to personally make sure my style of worship is like that of Philadelphia.

Peter asks this of Jesus and the answer Jesus gives is long and does not answer Peter directly but couches it in relational form of a manager of a house and a master. Jesus says in part from Luke 12:42-48 that he who knows the master's will and does not do it will suffer.

Again, the common thread between the faithful servant and the unfaithful servant is neither knows the hour that the Master returns. Indeed, the one who served faithfully will be rewarded, and the one who does not the Master's will will be punished. To the former, the second coming will be a pleasant surprise, and to the latter, a fearful surprise. Yet to both, it will be a surprise. You're telling me there's no chance that the surprise can occur today. That doesn't make sense to me.

I take exception to this notion.[that 144,000 is a literal number and not symbolic] Like I said, Revelation has much in it that explains mysteries. So, on the whole after studying it for so long, I don't think this is a fair assessment of the apocryphal style of writing that is done at the end of a three hundred year period when this style of writing was done.

I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying before I respond, and I feel like I'm treading on shaky ground here. Am I to believe that you think the apochryphal style of writing does not contain symbolism, metaphors, and allusions? (Not illusions, allusions.)

I hope I'm wrong in that assessment, because I think it's pretty clear to most readers that not everything in Revelation is literal. Morever, I don't think it's intended to be literal. As you mentioned, the apochryphal style of writing was commonplace at the time, and was used to convey messages from those versed in the style to others versed in the style, while hiding the same messages from those unversed. Inasmuch the early church was about to undergo great persecution, those who understood the message of this Revelation must have been encouraged and strengthened to endure the challenges ahead.

Numbers used in Revelation are almost all symbolic, and the true meanings of those symbols were most assuredly understood by those conversant in the apochryphal style. The best we can do is estimate the exact meaning of those symbols, but we can know that 144,000 doesn't refer to the exact number. God did not predetermine that there would be exactly 144,000 saved -- not 144,001, not 143,999.

Similarly, an earthly reign of 1,000 years is symbolic. It does not mean that Christ will return and reign on this earth (what a horrible place to have to rule) for 365,000 days, not a day more or less.

Finally, and then I'll bow out of this, because I can't in good conscience continue this discussion on a thread labeled by political parties, let me ask you this.

What is the meaning of "shortly" and "at hand"?

Revelation 1
1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;..."

3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

I believe that the primary purpose of Revelation was to prepare the christians of the early church for the tribulations that they were shortly to endure, and that most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled. Furthermore, the prohecies of Daniel led up to the establishment of Christ's church, the Kingdom that crushed all the kingdoms before, and that will last forever. The European Union is not prohpesied in scripture.

 

[Super 80]

Thanks for that quote. I have never noticed that before, and it explains the prophecy of how the gospel must be preached to all nations first. I thought that literally, man had to go out to every tribe/nation etc.

As far as signs before the end times, what do you think this one is?

Mark 13

14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[1] standing where it[2] does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[1] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Is the above where people come up with the idea that the Jewish temple must be rebuilt? If not, where does that prophecy come from?

Yes, and this is where Daniel forms much of the foundation of end time study. The references back to Daniel have only three places where the "abomination that causes desolation" is used in the Hebrew, DAN 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11. Of a minor note, each usage of what we see as "abomination that causes desolation" is slightly modified in the original language with prefixes and suffixes that delineate specific information beyond what we see in the English.

Daniel 9:27 lays the basis for timing as this abomination (the word is in the plural in the Hebrew) that causes desolation (the word for desolate has a prefix which makes it a noun and it is the same word that is repeated at the end of the verse) as happening at the mid-week point. Jesus then says that the sun/moon/star event foretold from old happens after this mid-week point. The events initiated with opening the sixth Seal are the same and this is the first of any of the seven seals can be linked time-wise to the seventieth 'seven' from Daniel 9:24-27.

Second, the mention of "abomination that causes desolation" in Daniel 11:31 has abomination preceded by an article suggesting a specific abomination and the word is singular. The word for desolation is identical though. The account of Daniel 11:5-30 describes a generational war between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies. The verses 11:31 and 11:32 describe Antiochus Epiphanies of 168 B.C. Antiochus is the last of line of Kings from the North, the Seleucids. Here he sets up a statue of Zeus in the Temple in Jerusalem. (You can read about this time in Josephus and the Book of Maccabees.)

The setting up of the idol statue in the Temple by Antiochus serves as pivot point where the vision in Daniel shifts focus to an even greater abomination as with Daniel 9:27 (one reason a Hebrew word is in the plural is to show how great it is). This is called dual focus and there are several other instances where this can be shown to occur in prophecy. Verses 11:36-39 describe the antichrist and verses 11:40-45 tell a linear story of his actions. The actions of 11:45 relate to the Holy Mountain which in the Old Testament refers as a place only to the mountain that Jerusalem sits on. That's why the events of 11:45 can be said to correspond with Luke 21:20.

Paul also says at this antichrist will set himself up in the Temple in 2TH 2:4 and proclaim himself to be God. This is the strongest reference and so validates the reference back to Daniel from the Gospel accounts Jesus mentioned twenty or more years previously.

Now you would be right to note there is no Temple and the Romans destroyed Herod's Temple in the first century. But prophecy does foretell about a temple that will be built in Ezekiel 40:1-43:9. This is the Temple that the antichrist will occupy. The man who measures it is John in Rev 11:1-2. Ezekiel records his observations.

Since the seventieth 'seven' starts only with the covenant with many, meaning from Israel (as she is the focus of Daniel 9:24-27 - and the theme of Daniel is God's authority over the Nations) one of the things that might be accomplished with that peace treaty is the rebuilding of the Temple on the Temple Mount currently occupied by the Rock of the Dome mosque. (The wailing wall is part of the outside wall of the old Temple.) You can see how delicately balanced this peace treaty will have to be. Now as to what will motivate the Israelites to build the Temple again and be willing to deal for peace is a matter of conjecture. I'll just ask though, what would happen if they ever found the Ark of the Covenant Jeremiah hid from the Babylonians?

So this is where people say the Temple must be rebuilt. Jesus refers back to Daniel with a similar occurrence of an idol in the Temple, Paul states it will happen in the future outright, John has measured it and Ezekiel provides the details on what it will look like.

 

[Super 80]

Re: Re: by way of explanation on a small point

Tony,

I'm going to edit out much just to shorten the post length.

They did not serve in different vineyards or devise their own style of "obeying" the Master.

I didn't say they did, all I am saying with the parable of the workers is that the reward for obeying God is the same.

Please don't be offended by my use of the word style - I got it from you, as you described the style of worship at Sardis and Philadelphia. I got the impression you believe worshipping in the style of the Philadelphia church will give you immunity from the "surprise factor" of judgment day.

I came up with "style" yesterday as word to describe what I see as different types of Churches as delineated by Jesus. Maybe that's not the right word. But I think there are different types of worshippers. I think someone who worships God for an hour on Sunday but lives the rest of their life as a non-believer is in serious jeopardy and THAT I think is the lesson of Luke 12:42-47 and the Church of Sardis.

Again, the common thread between the faithful servant and the unfaithful servant is neither knows the hour that the Master returns. Indeed, the one who served faithfully will be rewarded, and the one who does not the Master's will will be punished. To the former, the second coming will be a pleasant surprise, and to the latter, a fearful surprise. Yet to both, it will be a surprise. You're telling me there's no chance that the surprise can occur today. That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not saying it won't be a surprise. No one knows the day or the hour. But Jesus said "when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door." -MT 24:33. All I can know is when it is near. I am not putting together events from my own understanding but from the Bible from what God has given us so we would know.

I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying before I respond, and I feel like I'm treading on shaky ground here. Am I to believe that you think the apochryphal style of writing does not contain symbolism, metaphors, and allusions? (Not illusions, allusions.)

No I am responding directly to the assumption that Revelation is "chocked full of symbolism and mystery" as you said. While there is figures of speech, a systematic study of phrases and symbols can show how they could be rendered in plainer speech. And much of Revelation provides answers for symbols as visions are explained. So I reject the notion that no one can make heads or tails of this book. We should not be afraid of prophecy just because it talks about a scary time.

Furthermore, I am not ready to say every literal number must be taken literally. However, the Greek is much more precise than the Hebrew in rendering numbers. While there are symbolic meanings that can be attached to numbers such as the repetition of twelve with the tribes, John is as accurate as a person of his time and culture could be said to be. While a literal reading is not always supported, neither is every number figurative. So I don't agree with your assessment that almost every number in Revelation is symbolic. The idea that nothing is as it says, or that it's all a mystery goes against the very introduction of the book as revelation which means literally to reveal.

The first lesson in the book of Revelation is the very name coming from apokalypsis, in the simplest translation it means revelation, and derives from apokalypto meaning to uncover, reveal.—Theological Dictionary of the New Testament p.405. The beauty of this book is that it reveals mysteries rather than couch every vision in just symbols, and moreover it also provides an explanation for the symbols used in the vision.

What is the meaning of "shortly" and "at hand"?

How would John be presenting this prophecy if he said that it concerns a time far in the future and not to worry about it? Why didn't God just tell us the date He set so we'd know? To each of us, the Rapture will be as close as our death. To each of us we are to live though as if Christ were returning now, because our being caught up with Him can happen literally at any moment or haven't you known someone who died suddenly? To say a thousand years doesn't mean a thousand years but the figure of speech 'at hand' means it is going to occur then ignores the greater indications that events enumerated in Revelation are still in our future.

The lesson for the end time prophecy is to know God has a plan already for Christ's return. He also reveals that Christ will rule the nations on the Earth. Our duty is to live as this were to happen right now, because if we delay in living a Godly life, it might be too late. Since God loves us and wants what is best for us, instilling an imminent expectation for the believer works in their behalf.

I believe that the primary purpose of Revelation was to prepare the christians of the early church for the tribulations that they were shortly to endure, and that most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled. Furthermore, the prohecies of Daniel led up to the establishment of Christ's church, the Kingdom that crushed all the kingdoms before, and that will last forever. The European Union is not prohpesied in scripture.

The Church has not crushed all the Kingdoms. Man still rules the Nations or do you think the Nations act in accordance with God? The rock that smashes Nebuchadnezzar's statue introduces a time when Christ physically rules on Earth. While we have victory through Christ's death and resurrection, the devil is still very much at work in this world. I have a host of verses from the Gospel through the Epistles that establish that statement as fact.

This kind of thinking that the Church has crushed all other Kingdoms came about with the State-Church of Rome under Constantine and the writing of St. Augustine and represents the Amillennial point of view. If you want to say when Revelation takes place, you must take it with the whole of Scripture.

I think you're making a mistake in interpreting the Beasts of Daniel 7 on a one for one basis with the parts of Nebuchadnezzar's statue though. Although you are right, the EU is not mentioned by name in Scripture.

 

[doh]

Okay, I'll take a crack at this religion thing in the spirit of debate. We all face our time of tribulation here on earth. I am not the apocalypse now kind of guy. You face your trials here as best you can, ask His forgivness when you need it (most of the time in my case) and believe in the lord and then what ever happens you deal with that. It's really pretty simple for us christians. Grace through faith, period. I ain't smart enough for the rest of that stuff so I'll just let Him work it out. As far as the catholic church goes, I am guilty of letting the institution run without my over sight too much. I am trying to fix that by letting them know my money is going to other charities in the Tampa Bay area until they get better lay over sight. I'm junior, so I'm not here on sunday very often. But there are plenty of catholics who would do a fine job of looking over shoulders if given the chance. Just because the officials have fallen down on the job doesn't mean His word is no longer valid. There, that's all the smarter I am.

 

[Timebuilder]

Timebuilder,

Would the "child molesters" you are talking about include the Roman Catholic priests? Aren't these the same people who were "spreading the word of God" at the same time they were molesting children? Are these not the same people who were judging others as "satan worshippers" or "evil-doers" in public, while molesting children behind closed doors?

While we're on the subject of religion, doesn't "organized" religion itself cause war among different peoples? I mean all one has to do is look at Israel/Palestine or 9/11 to understand this fact.

Actually, when I wrote this passage I was thinking of another group, but when I read it later I realized just how this might appear to be aimed at the priests. As for whether of not they "spread the word of God", I'm divided. I believe that most priests are convinced they are in the right, but the truth is the Bible speaks against the kind of structure that is part and parcel of the Catholic church. I view the Bible as being the Word of God, and the Catholic church does not encourage its folowers to either learn, or even read the Bible. I'd probably be happier with the non-molesting priests if they were indeed taking on satan and his minions instead of holding bingo nights.

While organized religion CAN cause war among peoples, the larger reason is ignorance of God's will and his Word. Think about it: if the Palestinians and the Israelis decided to accept Christ's sacrifice, identifying Jesus as the Messiah of the old testament, then the conflict would immediately stop and we would have no terrorist problem if other Muslims followed suit.

It is the lack of agrement among Men, fostered by satan who exploits our weaknesses, that is the reason for these so-callede "religious" conflicts. In reality, they spring from an ignorance of God by Men and the politics of the secular world.

God knows how this paradox will be resolved, and he has laid it out for us in a somewhat circuitious and mysterious manner in Biblical prophecy. Somehow, a purpose that we do not fully understand is at work here as these events unfold. Could it be simpler if God were to suddenly appear to all of us right now and stop the world like in a science fiction movie, with Klaatu the robot at His side? Sure it would. But that would not alow us to have the opportunity to seek Him and become faithful rather than obediant to His visible image. He has a plan, and His will be done.