Delta's financial mess & pilot pay... Any thoughts?

[beachboy]

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Jun/06062004/business/172923.asp

 

[j41driver]

I thought that this quote was interesting. I've added the emphasis...

"On average, annual pay for a captain on Delta's smallest mainline jets -- a typical midcareer position -- is $195,000. Captains of similar-sized jets average $113,000 a year at American and $152,000 a year at Southwest."

 

[TonyC]

Like a mountain climber's broken toe, Delta Air Lines' expensive pilots have become a huge problem partly because of timing and circumstances.
In the case of the Atlanta-based carrier, its Mount Everest is $2 billion-plus in pilot payroll and pension costs, compounded by mounting losses, high fuel prices and competition with other carriers that have won labor concessions or already had much lower costs.

Typical uniformed viewpoint. $2 billion payroll - - did the author bother to mention the total operating costs of the airline, and what tiny fraction of that total the pilot payroll actually is?

And just how does "competition with other carriers" compound the pilot pay "problem"? Maybe that's a better option - - stop competing with other airlines. And start making all the other guys pay the high fuel prices, too! Apparently everyone but Delta must be getting a break - - how else could they have a "Mt. Everest" of a problem?

 

[350DRIVER]

DAL's pilots have fought too hard for too many years for the industry leading pay that they currently receive and should not and will not cave in to the propaganda that management is currently trying to sell. They may be bleeding but they are very far from being dead. Obviously they are going to end up taking pay cuts, probably in the neighborhood of 15% to 20% but they are in no immediate rush to do so until the pilots/union have thoroughly reviewed the books and not a minute sooner.... They are in no rush and should not be. One of the main problems is replacing mainline equipment with RJ's and selling off those routes that should be flown by Delta pilots, bottom line. Fortunately the loads have been good, the furloughed guys are returning, and things are looking up. This goes well beyond a "pilot pay" issue. Those guys worked too many years to get to where they are at present day and they should fight everything from here on out and I have no doubts that this is what this united and strong group will do.

best of luck General and all there......

3 5 0

 

[Thedude]

Tell a lie long enough and it become the truth...

 

[satpak77]

Wall Street - AMR v. DAL

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=1y&s=DAL&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=AMR

DAL is at near all time lows as far as stock price is concerned. This represents the "faith" the the Wall Street investing community has in DAL's future.

Right or wrong, jet fuel, labor costs, whatever the argument, DAL is down hard. Observe the other major carrier, AMR, and its stock has held up pretty well.

Hopefully things will turn around.

 

[DL_Infidel]

What is the truth Thedude?

Tell a lie long enough and it become the truth...

What lie might that be? It's unbelievable how many in our profession feel the DL pilot group should capitulate...giving up nearly 45% of our contract. If that's management's final offer, I'd rather ride this one down to the court house.

DL_Infidel

 

[ClassG]

Anyone know for sure? Do Southwest mid-career captains really pull down $150G's?

Thought it was more like $100K.

ClassG

 

[j41driver]

Anyone know for sure? Do Southwest mid-career captains really pull down $150G's?

Thought it was more like $100K.

ClassG

According to www.airlinepilotpay.com, a 10 year CA at Southwest makes $175/hour with an average of 77 hrs/mth. That works out to be $161700/year.

 

[350DRIVER]

According to www.airlinepilotpay.com, a 10 year CA at Southwest makes $175/hour with an average of 77 hrs/mth. That works out to be $161700/year.

Quite a few of them go well over that figure if they are into that much flying per month/year. I tend to think that would be the low end... I personally would not dig that kind of lifestyle doing 5 to 7 legs a day but many out there seem to be enjoying it. I guess it all comes down to knowing how to work the system in your favor.


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[freightdogfred]

Delta lost over a billion dollars last year. If the pilots flew for free, they will still have lost at least half of that. It is plainly evident their problems extend beyond pilot's pay. They are highly compensated, so they attract most of the attention. I've flown 121 for 6 different carriers in the last 17 years, and I've done a lot of jumpseating. The Delta pilots, to a man, are the most professional group of guys I've encountered and I hope things turn around there soon. Thanks guys, you deserve every penny you fought for and got.

 

[Publishers]

Great point

Delta lost over a billion dollars last year. If the pilots flew for free, they will still have lost at least half of that. It is plainly evident their problems extend beyond pilot's pay. They are highly compensated, so they attract most of the attention. I've flown 121 for 6 different carriers in the last 17 years, and I've done a lot of jumpseating. The Delta pilots, to a man, are the most professional group of guys I've encountered and I hope things turn around there soon. Thanks guys, you deserve every penny you fought for and got.

And just how long are we going to be around losing that billion a year? Who is going to pay them all that they deserve the day after Delta goes out of business.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"It's unbelievable how many in our profession feel the DL pilot group should capitulate..."


Along those same lines........

People on this board can be real hypocrites. They slam labor groups like mesa and others for accepting crappy contracts, Skywest for flying 70 seaters for 50 seat pay, American for jumping so quickly into a concessionary contract at the first hint of the bankruptcy threat, etc., etc., etc..

Yet here is a labor group trying to prevent a little of the "backslide" in pay and workrules (which will eventually trickle down to us ALL), and they are slammed as well. What do you want people?? Delta pilots have not said they wouldn't take paycuts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they offered some and were rejected by management (who doen't seem to want to negotiate on anything but their origingal request).

 

[350DRIVER]

And just how long are we going to be around losing that billion a year? Who is going to pay them all that they deserve the day after Delta goes out of business.

I love it....


I think it is extremely comical that you make assumptions like DAL is going out of business... You are an outsider as most others are and you know nothing more or less than the rest of us know. DAL is far from being dead and just as far from going out of business. Management will attempt to sell propaganda and use scare tactics to get what they want, this is nothing new to this industry. Fortunately the Delta pilots ain't taking the bait... This has little to do with the pilots and everything to do with the way the company is run.

Things are improving, take a look at the loads over recent times....

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[doh]

Some body explain to me how the pay cut would stave off bk. Delta would not make money if the pilots fly for free. Management did a poor job of managing debt. That's the real problem. All this yap about pilot pay is to deflect media coverage of management F ups.

 

[N2264J]

It's unbelievable how many in our profession feel the DL pilot group should capitulate...giving up nearly 45% of our contract. If that's management's final offer, I'd rather ride this one down to the court house.

You may get your wish but how will that be beneficial to Delta pilots? The pilot pay at mainline is simply unsustainable in today's marketplace. Unsustainable. In order for Grinstein to refinance Delta's massive debt and demonstrate to creditors that Delta is worthy of a loan to buy planes or fuel or gates, the pilot pay and benefit package is going to have to be in line with American and United. The creditors will demand it. In order to compete with the LCCs, Delta pilots are going to have to be more productive requiring work rule modifications.

This can happen outside of bankruptcy where the pilots can exercise some control of what to give up or in Chapter 11 where the MEC will have very little to say about it.

All the conservative Delta pilots should recognize capitalism and the effects of a deregulated free market economic Darwinian shake out. Adapt or die.

 

[xdays]

Typical uniformed viewpoint. $2 billion payroll - - did the author bother to mention the total operating costs of the airline, and what tiny fraction of that total the pilot payroll actually is?

Tony, Tony......What happened to that spell checker you mentioned in a critique of one of my posts?? I know you really meant "uninformed" and not "uniformed"!! ;-}

I think the phrase, "people who live in glass houses..." well you know what I mean.

By the way, your post is right on he mark.

X

 

[KE093]

As all of you already know, the world isn't fair. People who sit in their armchairs all day long and screw up the company get paid the most, and people who work at the front line get paid the least. Aviation industry is not an exception.

 

[DL_Infidel]

You may get your wish but how will that be beneficial to Delta pilots? The pilot pay at mainline is simply unsustainable in today's marketplace. Unsustainable. In order for Grinstein to refinance Delta's massive debt and demonstrate to creditors that Delta is worthy of a loan to buy planes or fuel or gates, the pilot pay and benefit package is going to have to be in line with American and United. The creditors will demand it. In order to compete with the LCCs, Delta pilots are going to have to be more productive requiring work rule modifications.

This can happen outside of bankruptcy where the pilots can exercise some control of what to give up or in Chapter 11 where the MEC will have very little to say about it.

All the conservative Delta pilots should recognize capitalism and the effects of a deregulated free market economic Darwinian shake out. Adapt or die.

BK is not my wish, never typed that. Grinstein wrote in a memo yesterday: "The company's new proposal cannot be a bargaining position from which to negotiate down. It will represent the minimum savings amount that Delta must obtain from the pilots, however painful, if this company, and their jobs, are to survive."

You're absolutely right that it would be more beneficial for DALPA and the company to come to an agreement outside of BK. However, since the DMEC is looking at the books and I am not, I chose to trust their judgment. I'm sure you can understand that the Delta pilot group is a little skeptical and hesitant to take GG's word at face value. Any MEC would be doing the same thing.

Yes, I'm sure a new TA will include increased productivity. But the fact of the matter is that we can be far more productive within the framework of our current PWA. Why isn't the company utilizing us more? Not sure. There is no way that legacy carriers will ever have pilots as productive as LCCs (hub-and-spoke system, various aircraft types and international flying).

We will have a new TA, whether it be this summer, after the amendable date in 2005, or CH11. If it's option #3, I will most likely be furloughed again...I've been preparing for that.

DL_Infidel

 

[Publishers]

It should

It should not even be a question as to whether or not the company can avoid bankrupcy, the question is whether or not it can generate a profit acceptable to the investing public with the cost structure it has. That is the required answer to go forward, all else is unacceptable.