Delta vs AirTran

[ASA]

Question for Delta guys. I have heard that things aren't as good as they used to be over there. All our pay scales are published--I'm wondering about Scheduling details.

For example, what sort of Duty/Trip rigs are in place? If you were flying international, say the three-day trip ATL-CDG-ATL, how many times would you have to do that per month? etc, etc. Any details would be appreciated.

At AirTran, it's basic. 4 hour minimum day. That's it. So on a given 4 day, you are simply guaranteed 16 hours. I'd say the average line is 3 4-day trips blocked at 22 hours, plus 1 3-day trip blocked at 19, for a total of 85 hours, probably 80 hours flown, 5 hours soft-time (deadhead and/or that 4 hour guarantee). Not bad, not great.

 

[Sedona16]

Daily guarantee at Delta = 5 hours 15 minutes. Most work rules are still in tact at Delta.

 

[Lear70]

At AirTran, it's basic. 4 hour minimum day. That's it. So on a given 4 day, you are simply guaranteed 16 hours. I'd say the average line is 3 4-day trips blocked at 22 hours, plus 1 3-day trip blocked at 19, for a total of 85 hours, probably 80 hours flown, 5 hours soft-time (deadhead and/or that 4 hour guarantee). Not bad, not great.

Not quite on the individual trips at AAI, but the total is accurate.

The 3-day is worth closer to 15-16.

3 4-days at 22 hours each = 66 hours, plus 1 3-day at 15 hours is 81 hours credit with 15-16 days off.

I swap/drop down to 18 days off with 75 hours of credit on average and do 3 legs a day with a 16 hour overnights for the most part.

 

[General Lee]

Question for Delta guys. I have heard that things aren't as good as they used to be over there. All our pay scales are published--I'm wondering about Scheduling details.

For example, what sort of Duty/Trip rigs are in place? If you were flying international, say the three-day trip ATL-CDG-ATL, how many times would you have to do that per month? etc, etc. Any details would be appreciated.

At AirTran, it's basic. 4 hour minimum day. That's it. So on a given 4 day, you are simply guaranteed 16 hours. I'd say the average line is 3 4-day trips blocked at 22 hours, plus 1 3-day trip blocked at 19, for a total of 85 hours, probably 80 hours flown, 5 hours soft-time (deadhead and/or that 4 hour guarantee). Not bad, not great.

Yes, we at Delta took a paycut in BK, but most of the workrules were left alone. Sedona16 was correct in his stating that lineholders have a minimum of 5:15 per day. Some trips have more time, like INTL trips to Europe can have 20 hours for a 3 day. It all depends on what you bid at Delta, and there are plenty of options. You could get INTL 767 FO very soon (within the 1st bid you are on the property) if you wanted, or you can stay domestic and get senior on the MD88 or 737-800. Most domestic three days have about 16-17 hours, but we also have turns worth 7 hours to the Caribbean, and two days worth 10-11 hours. It's all about options at Delta. First year pay isn't too bad, at $49 an hour, and that goes up dramatically the second year. Insurance is paid for from day 1, and pass benefits are pretty good. You also can commute on the jumpseat, and the jumpseat can be attained on the phone up to 4 days prior if you are commuting to work. If you have the jumpseat and the flight is cancelled and you miss your trip, you are excused too. Not bad. Things are moving and we are growing again.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

or you can stay domestic and get senior on the MD88 or 737-800.


??? I have 8 years and am very jr. on the -800. Cannot hold weekends, holidays or just about anything else I want off. Lets be honest with the responses! Go to UPS or FedEx!!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

or you can stay domestic and get senior on the MD88 or 737-800.


??? I have 8 years and am very jr. on the -800. Cannot hold weekends, holidays or just about anything else I want off. Lets be honest with the responses! Go to UPS or FedEx!!!!!!

5 years of negative growth after the biggest destructive thing to ever happen to our industry (9-11) can really stall your career. That is what happened at Delta. Prior to 9-11 things were going great, and they seem to be going that way again if our management actually does the things they say they will do. We don't have the same jerks that lead us down, so I am optimistic things can only get better. (sans another 9-11) If you are NYC based, you can be a line holder quick on the 738---maybe you should move up there.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

We don't have the same jerks that lead us down, so I am optimistic things can only get better. (sans another 9-11) If you are NYC based, you can be a line holder quick on the 738---maybe you should move up there.

Bye Bye--General Lee

What is taking so long with the CEO selection? There are some very good internal candidates. My concern is the the longer this drags out the more uncertain it is that the Board will select a Delta candidate. An outsider may put an entirely different spin on the Company, preparing it for a sale, or do some of the stupid McKenzie & Co. garbage like United is famous for.

Seems like the Board would be pleased with the current direction of Delta and want to endorse and support those who brought them to the dance - but then again - the stock has not performed, yet.

Don't the pilots have someone on the Board? What's the word General?

 

[800Dog]

5 years of negative growth after the biggest destructive thing to ever happen to our industry (9-11) can really stall your career. That is what happened at Delta. Prior to 9-11 things were going great, and they seem to be going that way again if our management actually does the things they say they will do. We don't have the same jerks that lead us down, so I am optimistic things can only get better. (sans another 9-11) If you are NYC based, you can be a line holder quick on the 738---maybe you should move up there.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Your original quote was that one could be senior soon on the -88 or 737 domestic. Last time I checked, NYC was considered domestic and with 8 years, I am a jr. lineholder there as well as the ATL. I will have one of what you are drinking please!!!

 

[General Lee]

Your original quote was that one could be senior soon on the -88 or 737 domestic. Last time I checked, NYC was considered domestic and with 8 years, I am a jr. lineholder there as well as the ATL. I will have one of what you are drinking please!!!

Did you see the last bid? It stated 61 more 73N FOs for ATL as newhires. There you go, a line. It is in your sights now, a light at the end of the tunnel. Please dispute my statement. Will you be a lineholder with 61 more people behind you? I can't hear you?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

What is taking so long with the CEO selection? There are some very good internal candidates. My concern is the the longer this drags out the more uncertain it is that the Board will select a Delta candidate. An outsider may put an entirely different spin on the Company, preparing it for a sale, or do some of the stupid McKenzie & Co. garbage like United is famous for.

Seems like the Board would be pleased with the current direction of Delta and want to endorse and support those who brought them to the dance - but then again - the stock has not performed, yet.

Don't the pilots have someone on the Board? What's the word General?

I believe they are looking at Richard Anderson (not McGiver)---the guy from NWA who went to United Healthcare as a senior VP. He is on our board of directors now and was actually well liked at NWA. I think it will be between him and our two internal candidates. I hope our CFO does not get the job, and it is between Whitehurst and Anderson.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[cpierse]

Daily guarantee at Delta = 5 hours 15 minutes. Most work rules are still in tact at Delta.

Wow - and your new hires get health insurance right away and 50 grand a year. Good for you guys!

Not so much with our POS concessionary contract at Cal: I just finished my two-day PC yesterday: two four hour sim periods, plus about three hours of brief and debrief each day for a grand total 2:24 of pay credit per day. Oh - and in a training month, you can contractually have only ten days off a month... What a load of sh!t that is!

The good news in all this is that when the time comes to vote for the next contract, there are at least 1000 of us new hires that really have nothing to lose by telling the company to shove it. We could make more at Wal-Mart, so there's no reason to accept anything less than a 30% pay raise with major qol improvements. That and I think we finally have the scabs outnumbered!

 

[800Dog]

Did you see the last bid? It stated 61 more 73N FOs for ATL as newhires. There you go, a line. It is in your sights now, a light at the end of the tunnel. Please dispute my statement. Will you be a lineholder with 61 more people behind you? I can't hear you?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Reread your original post. Noone will get senior quickly on the 800. I have eight years and am a bottom line holder. Be honest with those considering Delta!

 

[~~~^~~~]

800 Dog -

How many -700's are supposed to come and how many are rumored? Plus all the international growth will pull some out of their seats on the -800 for the pay. Next year looks good for the 800 according to my friends who are on it.

Seems like you are now in the proverbial "Catbird Seat." Like a batter with three balls and no strikes; it took a while, but now is a good time for you.

Some of the first of 07 new hires said that there were less than two dozen ahead of them for MD88 CA slots. With MD90's coming the 88 Capt. deal could go junior.

From the outside this looks compelling. Even at FedEx the first years are going to be rough unless you like living in Asia and home schooling your kids.

--------

To chime in on the Delta v/s AirTran debate it seems like it would be much easier to earn more at Delta, avoid the 717 training mess, see the world, have greater flexibility bidding what you want, get a junior upgrade if you want it in NYC, and be part of a network carrier which is slightly more resilient against increased energy costs.

 

[Plug]

I would have to say that DAL is a far better choice than AAI. Airtran is a great company, but the future is looking up for DAL. Legacies have restructured over the last few years and are now putting the pinch on the LCC's. JMO!

 

[timetoquit]

Whats the average hours a reserve 76ER FO will fly and whats the ALV for a lineholder?

 

[russtgol]

Yeah Delta is better by far... Airtran can't seem to do anything right....

 

[PuffDriver]

Question for Delta guys. I have heard that things aren't as good as they used to be over there. All our pay scales are published--I'm wondering about Scheduling details.

For example, what sort of Duty/Trip rigs are in place? If you were flying international, say the three-day trip ATL-CDG-ATL, how many times would you have to do that per month? etc, etc. Any details would be appreciated.

At AirTran, it's basic. 4 hour minimum day. That's it. So on a given 4 day, you are simply guaranteed 16 hours. I'd say the average line is 3 4-day trips blocked at 22 hours, plus 1 3-day trip blocked at 19, for a total of 85 hours, probably 80 hours flown, 5 hours soft-time (deadhead and/or that 4 hour guarantee). Not bad, not great.

Roughly speaking, 5:15 per day. The exception is deadhead only days--fairly few and far in between. So a 4 days trip is usually worth a minimum of 20:30. Many times they are worth that. As for CDG, that is what we call a hard time trip. You will fly 18:30 give or take and get paid for it as such, unless you fly more block. BTW, that is 18:30 in 48 hours spanning 3 days. We have some other triggers for trip construction and mid trip increase eg 1:3.5, 1:2 as well.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Question for Delta guys. ...

For example, what sort of Duty/Trip rigs are in place? If you were flying international, say the three-day trip ATL-CDG-ATL, how many times would you have to do that per month? etc, etc. Any details would be appreciated.

I'm on the 767-400, 10 from the bottom, and have been awarded that trip at least 2 times each month in the last four PBS bids (Jun-Sep).

It's a hard-time trip, guaranteed around 18:30.

I'm typically award 3-on, 4-off.

 

[Bake]

SWA is 6.5 average per day making the minimum 3 day 19.5 and a four day 26.0. However, you might have to go to Lubbock (thats in TX). I have a 3 day next week that pays 25.3 hours (trips) and I am in SNA, and PDX. I do believe I pass thru LBB.


PS I'm just trying to pee in the Generals corn flakes.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

For some reason I love the LBB jokes. :laugh:

 

[OCP]

Any other ASA people reading this and really hating Scott Hall for the BS he's putting out there about the Sept. schedules?

 

[Lear70]

SWA is 6.5 average per day making the minimum 3 day 19.5 and a four day 26.0. However, you might have to go to Lubbock (thats in TX). I have a 3 day next week that pays 25.3 hours (trips) and I am in SNA, and PDX. I do believe I pass thru LBB.


PS I'm just trying to pee in the Generals corn flakes.

Wow... 6.5 average day. Didn't know that, way cool.

We're 4 hours hard here and proposed 4.5 average day. I think we have a ways to go to "raise the bar"...

Love hearing other companies' trip and duty rigs.

 

[Ty Webb]

Yeah Delta is better by far... Airtran can't seem to do anything right....

Yeah, AirTran can't do anything right . . . . that's why were profitable every year for the past 6 years, while totally replacing the fleet with brand-new aircraft. . . . and why we have hired approximately 1,000 pilots while most companies were furloughing or stagnating.

Yeah, I guess AirTran can't do anything right

.

 

[jonjuan]

Yeah, AirTran can't do anything right . . . . that's why were profitable every year for the past 6 years, while totally replacing the fleet with brand-new aircraft. . . . and why we have hired approximately 1,000 pilots while most companies were furloughing or stagnating.

Yeah, I guess AirTran can't do anything right

.

dumbA$$, he meant AAI pilots union cant do anything right. It appears to me that your financial numbers simply show that management is doing just fine.....Do you have a AAI flag flying on your porch??

 

[Box-Hauler]

Ok I am ready to get flamed,

What is the sched like at DAL. I am looking at switching from boxes to talking boxes. Currently I sit reserve (my choice) and fly about 4 trips a month. I am getting tired of the night stuff. Is CVG a senior base? what type schedule could I expect. Is there a call out on reserve. Trying to weight my options.

Big downside is the HUGE pay cut I would take. This is an educated guess at my switching back to pax flying but the night stuff has gotten almost impossible if I have to do more than 2 trips in a row (cannot sleep in the day).

Any and all comments are welcome, thanks in advance.

 

[Old School]

is there any hope of getting day flying down the road?

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

??? I have 8 years and am very jr. on the -800. Cannot hold weekends, holidays or just about anything else I want off. Lets be honest with the responses! Go to UPS or FedEx!!!!!![/quote]

Well, I have 8 years seniority on the -88 and have spent one night in a hotel in the past 3 months, worked 3 single day weekend trips and got 135 hours of "CREDIT" last month. But, I haven't left the eastern time zone since May; can't compare to a summertime Barcelona layover if international flying is what you are in to.....

 

[Lear70]

Ok I am ready to get flamed,

What is the sched like at DAL. I am looking at switching from boxes to talking boxes. Currently I sit reserve (my choice) and fly about 4 trips a month. I am getting tired of the night stuff. Is CVG a senior base? what type schedule could I expect. Is there a call out on reserve. Trying to weight my options.

Big downside is the HUGE pay cut I would take. This is an educated guess at my switching back to pax flying but the night stuff has gotten almost impossible if I have to do more than 2 trips in a row (cannot sleep in the day).

Any and all comments are welcome, thanks in advance.

Man,,, if you fly for Brown or Purple, getting flamed would be the LEAST of your problems if you actually jumped ship.

Can't believe you'd give up that kind of job security (not to mention money), and it can't be ALL night flying. How long until you can hold a day line?

 

[Box-Hauler]

Man,,, if you fly for Brown or Purple, getting flamed would be the LEAST of your problems if you actually jumped ship.

Can't believe you'd give up that kind of job security (not to mention money), and it can't be ALL night flying. How long until you can hold a day line?

Dont fly for brown or purple, how about YELLOW over a nice old grey paint (ABX)

Days flying is few and very senior. Just too many unknowns for now. In the future it could be a great place or a typical ACMI right now it is anyones guess. I am just trying to see about QOL. Is CVG a senior or junior base. Dont care about equipment. I have flown heavy and not heavy, done international and domestic, all I really care about is QOL (days at home) pay is really secondary to QOL.

 

[slapstick]

i'm new as an NYC 88 FO and got a line for sept. that'll mean I only spent 3 weeks on reserve.