Delta Vp sellsout

[FDJ2]

I thought a mainline pension was worth about 3 to 4 million-at least. I don't think any retired guys were given anything like that out of bankruptcy.

Retired Delta pilots had the option of receiving 50% of their pension as a lump sum the day they retired and the rest paid out as an annuity for the rest of their lives. 81% of the remaining retirement obligations of the retired pilots is still funded by the Delta Pilot Retirement Trust, the remaining 19% will be covered by the $2.2B PBGC claim once the valuation of that claim is complete.

 

[FDJ2]

Well... they just made a 250 million dollar profit and didn't have to pay into the A fund because it doesn't exsist anymore, they didn't pay you the old wage, and all you get is posibly 0-4% raise in Jan.

Actually, they wrote a $650M check to the Delta pilots when they settled their note obligation in September. No, it didn't bounce.

The minimum guaranteed pay raise in January is 1.5%. That will be the second pay raise since we took a 14% pay cut in BK. Our pay raise will probably be more than that, maybe 2-5% plus we'll get a profit sharing check worth 2-5% on top of that.

Yeah that's not much, but it could very well cover 50% of our paycut in 1.5 years, not to mention on average a $200K payout from the claim sale.

 

[JAM-BRO]

FDJ2 and GL

I think what most here are pointing out is that you got screwed and you don't seem to believe it. If your pension had not been dumped, you would be getting about 15k/mo plus any excess for as long as you lived past 60. Close to 200k/yr. That would cover your claim dollars in about 3 years. I would take it that both of you are in your mid 40s and if you are really good managing your assets, that claim money in your 401k will double in the next 15yr. It might triple if you are really lucky.
Your DB would have payed you that much in 3 short years. And then what.
Bottom line is, BK screwed us all. Wake up dudes. BK WAS NOT GOOD!!!!

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2 and GL

I think what most here are pointing out is that you got screwed and you don't seem to believe it. If your pension had not been dumped, you would be getting about 15k/mo plus any excess for as long as you lived past 60. Close to 200k/yr. That would cover your claim dollars in about 3 years. I would take it that both of you are in your mid 40s and if you are really good managing your assets, that claim money in your 401k will double in the next 15yr. It might triple if you are really lucky.
Your DB would have payed you that much in 3 short years. And then what.
Bottom line is, BK screwed us all. Wake up dudes. BK WAS NOT GOOD!!!!

The Delta Pilot Pension was soft frozen in 2004, outside of bankruptcy, so no active Delta pilot accrued any additional percentage of FAE from that point onward, it was hard frozen in 2006.

Very few DAL pilots still on the property when we hit bankruptcy had accrued a $150k/year pension. Over 2000 senior DAL pilots early retired between 2002-2005 and they all had the opportunity to cash out on 50% of of their pension on the first day of their retirement. That means that they were not receiving a $12k/mos pension, but rather half of that.

In order for a DAL pilot to receive his full pension of 60% FAE he would have to complete 25 years under the DPRP. There are only approximately 300 pilots at DAL who have completed 25 years under the DPRP. They received on average just over $600K in both their note allocation and claim allocation in addition to over $100K in their MPPP ( average 1992 $280K + $100K MPPP, average 1998 $200K + $45K MPPP, even a 2001 hire who may not have flown a revenue mile before furlough got approximately $150K from the note and claim). They now have a DC plan going forward plus their PC-3 payout from the PBGC, plus their share of the PBGC's $2.2B claim.

When the Delta Pilot Retirement Plan was terminated, the plan had enough assets to cover 81% of all PC-3 obligations.

The PBGC received a $2.2B claim and by law they must use a large part of that to pay off any additional pension obligations.

If the PBGC valuation of their claim is 45 cents on the dollar ( the pilot claim payed out over 60 cents) then there will be enough cash to fully fund all PC-3 obligations and enough cash in combination with the Money Purchase Pension Plan and $650M note distribution to cover 100% of all accrued qualified benefits.

Going forward, each DAL pilot has a 9% DC plan and a 2% 401k contribution (not match), in addition to what he has received from the note, the claim and his company paid Money Purchase Pension Plan.

BK is not fun, but quite frankly I'd rather have my pension in my own name then the promise of a pension from a company. Most Delta pilots who can see a return of 7.5%/year will actually do better with the note payout, MPPP money and their PBGC payout, then what what they had accrued under the DPRP at time of termination.

 

[JAM-BRO]

The Delta Pilot Pension was soft frozen in 2004, outside of bankruptcy, so no active Delta pilot accrued any additional percentage of FAE from that point onward, it was hard frozen in 2006.

Very few DAL pilots still on the property when we hit bankruptcy had accrued a $150k/year pension. Over 2000 senior DAL pilots early retired between 2002-2005 and they all had the opportunity to cash out on 50% of of their pension on the first day of their retirement. That means that they were not receiving a $12k/mos pension, but rather half of that.

In order for a DAL pilot to receive his full pension of 60% FAE he would have to complete 25 years under the DPRP. There are only approximately 300 pilots at DAL who have completed 25 years under the DPRP. They received on average just over $600K in both their note allocation and claim allocation in addition to over $100K in their MPPP ( average 1992 $280K + $100K MPPP, average 1998 $200K + $45K MPPP, even a 2001 hire who may not have flown a revenue mile before furlough got approximately $150K from the note and claim). They now have a DC plan going forward plus their PC-3 payout from the PBGC, plus their share of the PBGC's $2.2B claim.

When the Delta Pilot Retirement Plan was terminated, the plan had enough assets to cover 81% of all PC-3 obligations.

The PBGC received a $2.2B claim and by law they must use a large part of that to pay off any additional pension obligations.

If the PBGC valuation of their claim is 45 cents on the dollar ( the pilot claim payed out over 60 cents) then there will be enough cash to fully fund all PC-3 obligations and enough cash in combination with the Money Purchase Pension Plan and $650M note distribution to cover 100% of all accrued qualified benefits.

Going forward, each DAL pilot has a 9% DC plan and a 2% 401k contribution (not match), in addition to what he has received from the note, the claim and his company paid Money Purchase Pension Plan.

BK is not fun, but quite frankly I'd rather have my pension in my own name then the promise of a pension from a company. Most Delta pilots who can see a return of 7.5%/year will actually do better with the note payout, MPPP money and their PBGC payout, then what what they had accrued under the DPRP at time of termination.

It is still a loss of over 60% on their pension to those 300 you are talking about. 6k/mo compared to the PBGC's $2,800/mo and $600k compared to a possible $1.5m lump sum is huge. In your case, your pension loss might be in the 80%(optimistic) range. I think my numbers are correct. You had guys making over 300k/yr not too long ago. 60% FAE on that is huge. I believe there is an ERISA cap of $150k/yr on these type of pension plans. At NWA, an excess fund was negotiated since the 60% FAE of retirees exceeded the cap. I am almost sure that you guys had the same over there. Anyway u look at it, we got screwed. I believe that if the airlines are doing well, the PBGC should return the pensions back and force the airlines too make good on their promise.

 

[FDJ2]

It is still a loss of over 60% on their pension to those 300 you are talking about. 6k/mo compared to the PBGC's $2,800/mo and $600k compared to a possible $1.5m lump sum is huge.

That depends on how many years they have left to retirement, plus how much their PC-5 redistribution is. You assume that they all have accrued a $150K pension. You also assume $2,800 is the maximum they will receive from the PBGC, that quite frankly is not the case. You have to consider plan assets vs liabilities, and claim valuation along with its PC-5 redistribution. $2.2B at 45 cents on the dollar (just a conservative estimate) is quite a bit of money to redistribute.

In your case, your pension loss might be in the 80%(optimistic) range.

Accrued or expected? No DAL pilot lost 80% of what they had earned. I can tell you that I actually will receive over 100% of what I had accrued as will over half of all DAL pilots. Only pilots with large non qualified earnings will receive less than 100% of accrued benefits.

I think my numbers are correct. You had guys making over 300k/yr not too long ago.

Yeah, they retired and are PC-3s. Like I said, earlier, the pension fund assets alone covered 81% of their pension without even getting into Pc-5 redistribution of a $2.2B claim.

60% FAE on that is huge. I believe there is an ERISA cap of $150k/yr on these type of pension plans. At NWA, an excess fund was negotiated since the 60% FAE of retirees exceeded the cap.

You're talking qualified vs non qualified monies.

I am almost sure that you guys had the same over there.

Yes, we also had a MPPP which was an offset to those non qualified plans. That money was in the pilots name, but did not cover 100% of non-qualified funds. The note distribution covered 60% of non qualified funds for pilots who earned over $205K/year and 100% of accrued qualified benefits.

Anyway u look at it, we got screwed. I believe that if the airlines are doing well, the PBGC should return the pensions back and force the airlines too make good on their promise.

The PBGC is an insurance plan against plans which are terminated by federal judges. You get judges to stop terminating pension plans then maybe we might get somewhere.

Look, I'm not saying things are great and I'm happy with everything. I'm not, but given the circumstances, most pilots captured at least 100% of the pension they had earned with the note distribution, Money Purchase Pension Plan rolled over into their own name, estimated PC-3/PC-4 payments plus PC-5 redistributions. The claim money, due to the large valuation of 60 cents on the dollar, made up for a 14% pay cut and then some.