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Delta to look differnt in 1 year

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Ganja,

Heavy has already claimed that he is not a Delta employee.

Dave Griffen,

That's BS. The non-union employees should also contribute and there is a lot of money on the table. Why is managment only targeting the sole unionized labor group? Sure, it's the largest expense, but that doesn't mean this isn't a team effort (like in most restructurings).

How much are Delta FA's paid relative to their Jet Blue or AirTran peers? Have you noticed all of the "senior mamas" who remain at Delta? Perhaps you are married to one and that's why you go ballistic when this is mentioned - that's my theory. What sorts of health care costs are created by all of the old bag FAs at Delta? Hmmmmmm. There is plenty of money still on the table - and let's not forget management's bonuses tied to reducing pilot costs.... Nobody wants to admit that changing the pilot wage structure alone will NOT completely save Delta - there's more work to be done beyond the pilots...
 
On Your Six said:
Ganja,

there's more work to be done beyond the pilots...
Dave,. wannabe UDT, will be squealing like a pig when GG announces deep wage cuts for the non unionized work force, which represents 82% of DAL employees, in order to get them more in line with JBLU and AirTran. We're not talking just the work rule changes and increased medical premiums, we're talking actual deep cuts in take home pay. GG recently acknowledged that pilot pay cuts will not solve the DAL's long term cost problem, something we have been saying all along. Once GG gets a negotiated concession from the pilots, he'll announce more belt tightening for the rest.
 
I have some questions.

IF the Delta pilots should make significant concessions in their work rules, how will that affect the number of pilots required to operate the fleet?

IF the Delta pilots do NOT make concessions in work rules that impove productivity substantially, how much BIGGER will the cuts in basic book rates have to be in order to retain the current pilot force and recall the 1060?

Will Delta's current pilots be willing to absorb the cost of lower productivity that permits the recall of furloughed pilots or prevents furloughing even more?

If Delta (mainline) is to expand via the purchase of larger RJs, e.g., the EMB 170/190 series or CRJ 900 or more CRJ 700s (operated by Delta pilots), how much lower than "book rates" at carriers like CMR, CHQ, MAA, SKW, etc., have to be in order to be "competitive", given the costs of Delta's "benefits", i.e., the pension plan and the medical?

Carriers like JB and AirTran and IND, etc., do not have costly DB retirement plans. They also have pilots with relatively low seniority. Can airlines like AA and DL offset the added costs of the retirement programs by lowering their pay rates (below those of the competition) to encourage their company to buy such aircraft? Will the unions as AA and DL maybe agree to a different pension plan for the pilots of these "new" aircraft that they want?

When all is said and done and the compensation package for these "new" rejional jets operate by mainline is "competitive", what will be the advantage of a current regional pilot "moving up" to the mainline?
 
surplus1 said:
When all is said and done and the compensation package for these "new" rejional jets operate by mainline is "competitive", what will be the advantage of a current regional pilot "moving up" to the mainline?

The advantage is obvious to me. They could then be called "real" airline pilots, and not the pond scum sucking whores they are now.
 
Surplus,

I haven't the knowledge or foresight to answer your $$$ questions, maybe somebody else will take a whack at it.

But I still think even if, collectively, the entire mainline/legacy/whatever carriers take 10-year step back in pay and working conditions it will still be a step forward for pilots coming from regional/feeder/jet national/watever carriers.

I came from a decent regional (now known as Expressjet). I was a Captain on the ERJ. When I went to Delta there were numerous intangibles that made just being an employee there great and made it a good career job. I'll try to highlight my experiences...and these are really the things I think about when I think of getting recalled some day. The pay is certainly something to look forward to, but there's so much more to it than that...

For one thing, I really enjoyed flying with Captains that had all sorts of different experiences...I felt like I learned a lot from them. They had a relaxed, professional manner when it came to problem solving that I think we all strive for. At COEX we all had about the same experience, similar backgrounds, etc. We were generally the same age, had never flown a jet before, went to the same colleges, etc.

Being at a major was better because as a pilot you benefitted from procedures and being developed for 70+ years. Most everything that was done had a reason it was done that way, and most things ran so much smoother than at my regional. They had a great emphasis on safety...it was truly imbedded into your brain. There was never a pressure to "be cool & laid back". You were expected to do a professional job all the time. It was really liberating. No cocky 25 year old attitudes to deal with. Things that would have labeled me as a "hard ass" or "nitpicker" or "uncool" at COEX were simply the way things were done at Delta. Of course you use the checklist for everything, Of COURSE you identify navaids, Of COURSE you had charts out even though its a glass airplane, of COURSE you try to nail the airspeeds. I never had someone say "I've flown this airplane for 7 years and I don't need a checklist" (got that from some 3-year RJ FOs at COEX). It was just a comfortable, professional atmosphere to work in with mutual respect between crewmembers.

The training was outstanding. Nobody at the training department was there to prove anything...they were there to help you get through the training and make sure you were prepared for the line. The training center itself was amazing with all the resources at your disposal 24-7. I never feared training, even while on probation.

Plus lets not forget that flying bigger aircraft has its rewards. Generally, they are more capable operationally...not many headaches with weight restrictions, climb performance, range, etc. Things don't break as much because the company has mechanics with tons of experience. The radar works....which was a big plus over the ERJ! The dispatchers actually knew what they were doing. Delta has their own meteorologists at your disposal. Its fun to have a big crew and get to know other crewmembers at the overnight.

For pilots, everything related to day-to-day schedule was pretty computerized. Between checking your schedule on the computer and getting messages from scheduling over ACARs, you rarely spoke with an actual scheduler. Wanna drop a day off? Put in the request on the computer and check back in 12 hours. Wanna pick up a trip, do the same. The computer knew the contract and if it was permitted, viola....no asking for "favors" or dreading talking to a particular scheduler like I did at COEX.

The attitudes in the Chief Pilot's office and management were 180 from what we had at COEX. In particular, they did not micromanage pilots. Their philosophy was that we were experienced enough and paid to make the tough decisions...if they start nitpicking, you can develop a culture where people sometimes avoid making the tough, although right, decision because they don't want to defend themselves in front of the Chief Pilot. The motto was "you make the tough call, and we'll back you up." And it wasn't just a motto...they did back you up.

I was always treated with the utmost respect by fellow employees. Something that we all know does NOT happen at the regionals. Everyone from the crew scheduler (when you spoke to them) to the dispatcher, mechanics, ramp guys, etc. respected your position and were super friendly. Perhaps it was because they were treated with respect as well?! (Imagine that!) Most all the mainline employees were there for a career too and treated their jobs as seriously as we do. They always tried to do a great job and generally were provided the tools to do so. When I was hired, spouses and family members were invited down for the first two days of indoc. It was great that they included spouses on the benefits packages, how our schedules worked, etc. We were all given a big tour of Delta HQ and the Delta Heritage Museum, then they threw a dinner for us where we were given our first set of wings by the director of flight ops in a big ceremony...they gave our spouses roses I think. Talk about a warm welcome.

Anyway, I could go on and on. No matter what has happened since, Delta people made you feel pretty great to be a Delta pilot from day 1. I know the same thing used to happen at UAL. Not sure about the other majors but I'm sure it all carries over.

And if you want to talk about pay...even if a "regional
had 70,90, or even 100 seat airplanes some day...they will never pay the same as a 150, 200, or 250 seat airplane. There will always be more money at the mainline carriers with a focus on retirement.

But economics aside, I just loved being a part of the mainline experience for so many other reasons. No matter what happens I know I reached my goal of being a big-airplane airline pilot....and it was great...even if it may have been short-lived.

ps...Oh yeah, and I forgot one more point that makes being at a major mo-better. When there are "pilot shortages" our low-time hires have 3000 hours....not 500. Makes for a much less stressful Captain! :)
 
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Surplus1,


Vortilon is correct in many ways. Another thing a Major gives you is "choice." You can choose to live in different cities--and be based in different cities--as long as your seniority can hold it. You can choose to fly more than one or two different aircraft. You can choose to fly a different seat that suits your needs--an example being a senior 777 FO can hold Capt on something else--but he can still be the FO on something that doesn't really penalize him monetarily (still good pay as widebody FO) and he can have a better schedule for home life.

I am sure we will be taking a big pay hit soon, but overall it will still be good pay and the benefits--which may take a hit also---will still be good. With the FO rates lowering here, I wouldn't doubt that Dalpa will also be negotiating for a 100 seater possible pay rate and maybe lower like the CR9. Dalpa will be looking at protecting our junior people--no doubt.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Oh yeah, and I was actually able to say where I worked at parties and people knew what I was talking about. Nor would I have to say "Continental" and thn mumble "Express"

Plus no more insipid comments from people like, "so when are you going to fly the big jets?"

Morons.... :)
 
General Lee said:
Surplus1,
I am sure we will be taking a big pay hit soon.
You keep reminding us of the "hit" you will be taking soon more than John Kerry reminds us of his Vietnam service. What's the deal? Looks like you're pretty defensive about the fact that the seniors haven't done much more than hem and haw and stall stall over the last 3 years.

General Lee said:
Dalpa will be looking at protecting our junior people--no doubt.
Just as you've protected juniors since Nov 2001.
hahahah
Good one GL. Serve up more of your MEC kool aid to keep all the troops in line.
 
"Just as you've protected juniors since Nov 2001."

Dave,

In case you have been living in a bomb shelter and you are completely oblivious to what's been said on this board over the last year or two, General Lee has been one of the FEW outspoken advocates on this board in favor of protecting the Delta furloughees..... He has been trying to protect the people who have pretty much been "forgotten" and left to drift. When Comair pretty much denied the furloughees opportunities to occupy low-seniority FO seats without giving up their seniority numbers (unlike ASA which was very generous), GL was very outspoken about his disgust. Sure, you might be speaking in generalities (Dalpa), but make sure you are not accusing GL of not caring for the welfare of the junior people - he has been a strong advocate many, many times.

I wish I had someone like that at least vocalizing support at my crappy major... I'm sure you would appreciate having an advocate like GL if you were a Delta furloughee now.
 
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Dave,


Man alive, you are pi$$ed. You must be a furlough, and if you are I can sort of understand that. (maybe I can't exactly) Here's the deal. We needed the creditors to help also--not just the pilot pay--which would have resulted in just a "bandaid" for our problems. If we would have given in sooner---the creditors would not have looked into helping also. We need long term creditor relief.

As far as the "senior guy" and their pay, you are right--they haven't taken ANY pay hit since 9-11. They have enjoyed three uninnerrupted years of the C2K contract--even though everyone else in the industry (major wise--AA and UAL primarily) has taken huge cuts. So, they have all "earned" their "best" three years for their retirement already---and therefore Malone will see this and see that it is now time to help the junior people more---since the senior guys have already had their best three years. Malone will risk a revolt if he $crews the junior guys and favors only the senior pilots. The senior guys got their pay for as long as they did--and that will help them in retirement. That is the way I see it.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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Interesting rumor regarding US Airways pension termination. Apparently when the company stated that they had to terminate the pilots defined benefit plan they stated that the plan was only funded about 35% or so of its obligations. The rumor I hear is that over the last year with the recovery of the stock market the PBGC has determined that the pilot's pension plan is actually funded about 97%. Sounds like Siegal and Bronner really screwed those guys over. Has anybody else heard anything like this?
 
Guys like Rgd feel the need to advocate lower pay wages for pilots who fly larger planes---and then he wants to fly their planes. He would probably fly the 777s for $100 an hour as Capt---just because it is more than what he is getting on the RJ.




Hey GL, again your narrowminded point of view comes shining through. I never advocated ANYTHING. Try to be a little more objective in your posts. Thats all I was trying to say. There is more than your side of the story you know. You just assumed because I knocked your pollyanna fortune telling dribble, that you could lump me in with people that feel the way you described above. Hey, sorry if it pissed you off, but acting like such a soothsayer from eveything from the stock market to future travel loads gets really old. Just like everything else, you have made a giant leap about something you know nothing about.
 
RGD,


Show me where I was wrong. Point something out and give facts---otherwise---YOU ARE THE ONE WITHOUT A CLUE. Prove me wrong.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
RGD,


Show me where I was wrong. Point something out and give facts---otherwise---YOU ARE THE ONE WITHOUT A CLUE. Prove me wrong.

Bye Bye--General Lee
OK General here you go. Stats that show that the independent regional carriers actually make more than the wholly owned carriers, and they both make more than the mainline carriers. The regional guys are tired of subsidizing you General:

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2.../bts016_04.html
 
Whats the stock market gonna be next week o' prognosticator? You can't be wrong in your post general, cause they are all about the FUTURE. I want to know how you know what fuel is gonna be priced at in a few months, or how the market is gonna continue its great recovery, or how there are going to be all these jobs at a major carrier so we should all submit to your wishes. All the analyst you use are just that, analyst. They are making an educated guess. Thats it. They are as much wrong as they are right and they have their own agendas. Look at the market for the last 50 or so years. Its a rule of thumb that it goes up in the months from April to September and its down from October to March. But that doesn't mean it always will do that. It's still just a educated guess based on history. Some of what you say MIGHT be right, but you act like it's all above repute and an absolute. If anyone questions you, they want to fly a 777 for 23.50 and hour. The problem is that some things you say, I, along with others agree with you, but when you make it sound like you are right about everything and you know the answers to all the questions that haven't been asked yet, it makes your credibilty take a major nosedive. I get sick of the absolutes. EVERYBODY hates the RJ, there will be mainline jobs for EVERYBODY, EVERYBODY says the RJ is uncomfortable, EVERYBODY loves Song, EVERYBODY at CMR hates EVERYBODY at DAL, (I am not a CMR pilot), EVERYBODY should think like me, I am always right, EVERYBODY else is alway wrong, I like EVERYBODY that agrees with me, but anyone who doesn't is a jerk. Not everybody is you, or wants to be like you or where you are, so be open to others ideas and not so close minded.
 
Better than me proving you wrong, prove yourself right. Every man is entitled to his own opinon, but not his own facts.
 
rgd,

I never said all of that. You are going overboard here. I never said EVERYONE hates the RJ---but I have pointed out--in a Wall Street Journal Weekend piece--that a lot of businessmen do--and they are our bread and butter. I think people who used to fly on props like the RJs better. I never said I hated all Comair people. I just don't like what the RJDC stands for, and I am dissapointed that more Comair people didn't try to do more to change their "resign the DL seniority number" policy when ASA--their sister Airline--allowed our furloughs to come over. I wasn't very happy about that--especially since I knew people that would have loved to go over there to Comair. Do I know a lot about what the stock market is going to do? I wish I knew more--but I watch the cable shows on my days off and I can see trends--but I don't really invest much. Do I know what gas prices will be? I have an oil "ticker" that gives updates every thirty seconds during trading days---but that's it. I hope terrorism goes down and oil prices fall too---but I can't predict that. I fly Song all of the time--maybe 75% of my flights--and I haven't seen one complaint---unless we were late due to weather etc... Most people love it--they like the sassy attitude, the TVs, and the whole concept. It is true. Do I really think everyone should think like me, and be like me? I hope not. I am full of my own problems---but I try to read up on what is going on and I always give my opinions on everything and try to back it up---which is allowed due to the fact that I gave money, and this is an opinion board as well as an open job search board. If you do not like it--you can always go to another site.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General said:
"I am dissapointed that more Comair people didn't try to do more to change their "resign the DL seniority number" when ASA--their sister Airline--allowed our furloughs to come over. I wasn't very happy about that--especially since I knew people that would have loved to go over there to Comair."

Those people could have flown ASA or CMR RJs if we had a single seniority list. To blame the CMR pilots for your MEC's mistakes is comical. By the way, those of us at ASA didn't have to change our managements mind - they already didn't require a seniority list resignation. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare what ASA and CMR did (or didn't do for you).
 
Inclusivescope,


I don't really want to get into this one again, but first of all--it wasn't for ME. Comair not allowing our furloughs to go over to the bottom of their list was A SLAP IN THE FACE to the furloughs. The ASA people were nice enough to allow it. I don't care who was at fault over there at Comair---management or whoever. Comair and ASA gained a lot by Delta parking a lot of planes--and only ASA realized this and offered to help the unfortunate people who couldn't help themselves and were thrown into a furlough situation. The same can be said about the Comair strike--when all ALPA people paid money--including me---to help the Comair pilots out during their time of need. Short and Simple--the COMAIR PILOTS DID NOT DO ENOUGH TO VOICE A STRONGER OPINON TO TRY TO GET THAT STUPID POLICY CHANGED. ASA proved they could do it---Comair did NOT. That is where you lose this argument---the ASA people (who are your brothers and sisters) helped our furloughs out. You are blaming one man (our MEC chair) for a supposed mistake--and that eventually affected hundreds of people. Nice. That really is comical. You can't see that actual people and families were affected here--just like during the Comair strike. Were you affected during that strike? Did you enjoy the $1000 or whatever you got a month from ALPA? How much have you given our furloughs when they needed your help? Answer that one please. (don't change the subject)

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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