Delta to look differnt in 1 year

[DLslug]

Wil:


Thanks for the thoughtful comments and not just bashing. Nice job.

Look forward to having you one day.

All for now,

DLslug

 

[lowecur]

BTW- Why won't Delta look at the 717? Seems like a good AC.

Good questions wil. The same reason that FL bought the 737NG...........it can't make the turn to the West Coast from ATL. When they close the hubs at DFW and SLC, this will make it even more important to have a 100 seater that can pull that off.

The advantage of the E-series is their versatility. They can fly the short routes cheaper than the 717, and they can fill in to the left coast when the routes become thin.

 

[General Lee]

Wil,


Yes, as DLSlug said--thank you for not bashing us. We are trying to get this solved one way or the other. Guys like Rgd feel the need to advocate lower pay wages for pilots who fly larger planes---and then he wants to fly their planes. He would probably fly the 777s for $100 an hour as Capt---just because it is more than what he is getting on the RJ.

I am glad you see it all that way, and thanks to ASA again for helping a lot of our furloughs. I think you will eventually get that chance to go to Mainline---and if there isn't an actual flow through type deal--I will eventually try to get you over here anyway. I will also get Sleepy and Rgd a job here too---lav dumping. (please wear the full face mask---it will prevent infections)

Lowecur,

I hope we eventually get some sort of 100 seater, and if the price is right (which would be key after we pilots give back pay)--I wonder what the role would be of a future 100 seater at Delta? The current 100 seater (the 737-200) does not do any coast to coast flying, and mainly stays around the ATL and CVG hubs. I was told that the SLC chief pilot said that they needed a 100 seater out there too---allowing them to go back to Montana. I guess it will come down to the amount of money we eventually give up, and the deal that could be made with Boeing, Embrear, or Airbus. But, I have also heard that we MIGHT get a good deal with Canadair for some of the CR9s (not 100 seats, but close) and they might be willing to trade in some of the options or orders of the CRJ-50s for a smaller number of CR9s. That could be an option--if the price is right and everything else falls into place.....Mesa flies those CR9s from PHX to MEM---which is a good range.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[lowecur]

But, I have also heard that we MIGHT get a good deal with Canadair for some of the CR9s (not 100 seats, but close) and they might be willing to trade in some of the options or orders of the CRJ-50s for a smaller number of CR9s. That could be an option--if the price is right and everything else falls into place.....Mesa flies those CR9s from PHX to MEM---which is a good range.

They would have to pay you guys to take them. The range for the 900 is around 1800nm vs 2100nm for the 175 @86pax. Economically, the 175 is about 30% cheaper to operate than the 900. Can you see why so few have been sold? If DL ever does buy the 900, then I know mgt is on another planet. But at least they would give them to DCI.

 

[sleepy]

Why would some ASA or Comair pilot want to start over again at the bottom of the DAL seniority list to fly a 100 seat aircraft if they could stay at ASA or Comair and fly the same aircraft from the top of the seniority list?

Why be DAL furlough fodder when you could have a great schedule and a secure job at ASA or Comair? The better schedule and benefits at DAL? Well, I have a feeling that they won't be so much better than ASA and Comair after CH11.

 

[MedFlyer]

I agree that any 100 seater should be flown by mainline. However, I'm not all that worried about DL getting a 100 seater anytime soon. Even after concessions, DL will still be buried in debt. If DL goes out and starts buying up lots of new planes, it will only bury DL deeper in debt. Take a look at AMR...it's been over a year since they got concessions and you don't seem them buying tons of new planes.

In fact, I wouldn't be all that surprised if DL mainline shrinks a little bit over the next year or two. The leases on the 732's will be expiring and DL really doesn't want to renew them. If DL manages to schedule more efficiently

 

[FDJ2]

But at least they would give them to DCI.

Lowecur, the E-170 does not meet the definition of a permitted aircraft, as defined in the DAL PWA, since it has a maximum certificated configuration of 78 seats.

 

[lowecur]

I agree that any 100 seater should be flown by mainline. However, I'm not all that worried about DL getting a 100 seater anytime soon. Even after concessions, DL will still be buried in debt. If DL goes out and starts buying up lots of new planes, it will only bury DL deeper in debt. Take a look at AMR...it's been over a year since they got concessions and you don't seem them buying tons of new planes.

Well for my investment sake, I hope they do take the fling. AMR I think made a mistake not going 11 at the time. The reason they haven't ordered the E-series is they can't get the voluntary rate reductions necessary from mainline to compete with B6, UAIR, or the new Republic. 11 would have made that much easier. Greenjeans won't make that mistake.

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur, the E-170 does not meet the definition of a permitted aircraft, as defined in the DAL PWA, since it has a maximum certificated configuration of 78 seats.

I was referring to the CRJ900 in that sentence. Of course, all things considered this could only take place one of two ways.

 

[80drvr]

Well for my investment sake, I hope they do take the fling. AMR I think made a mistake not going 11 at the time. The reason they haven't ordered the E-series is they can't get the voluntary rate reductions necessary from mainline to compete with B6, UAIR, or the new Republic. 11 would have made that much easier. Greenjeans won't make that mistake.

What are you talking about? Have you seen AA's rates lately?

 

[lowecur]

What are you talking about? Have you seen AA's rates lately?

Knock, knock, Hello McFly, is anyone home??? I'm talking about the 100 seater. Unless I'm wrong, any rates in effect for 100 seaters would not be competitive with B6, MAA, SKW, or Republic.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Lowecur, the E-170 does not meet the definition of a permitted aircraft, as defined in the DAL PWA, since it has a maximum certificated configuration of 78 seats.

FDJ2,
This is a perfect example of the utter failure of current ALPA scope language. CHQ, a DCI carrier, is able to operate E170s under UAL colors in direct competition with DAL, while wholly owned ALPA DCI carriers are not allowed to operate the same aircraft in support of DAL. This is one of the best examples of a failed ALPA scope policy.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2,
This is a perfect example of the utter failure of current ALPA scope language. CHQ, a DCI carrier, is able to operate E170s under UAL colors in direct competition with DAL, while wholly owned ALPA DCI carriers are not allowed to operate the same aircraft in support of DAL. This is one of the best examples of a failed ALPA scope policy.

DAL pilots can operate these aircraft and should, so I would argue that this is an excellent example of how scope should work. DAL buys an aircraft, DAL pilots fly them. If not for scope management could outsource the flying to the lowest bidder, which I assume you hope would be you or some other member of the portfolio.

 

[General Lee]

inclusivescope,


You and Rgd want DCI to grow at Mainline's expense. The passengers are BACK. They don't like RJs at all. They want larger planes, and to make money in a LCC environment--we need more seats at the low fares. A 50 or even a 70 seater may not bring in enough revenue against an Airtran 717 or a Jetblue Emb 190. You guys want all of the 70 seaters you can get--when we need larger planes to bring in more feed to our hubs--the main source of our revenue. We also have a lot of pilots out on the street---and after we get pay cuts, we would like to eventually bring them ALL back. Can you get off your EXPANSION HORSE for one minute and let some of the pilots on the street come back to work?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

I was referring to the CRJ900 in that sentence. Of course, all things considered this could only take place one of two ways.

Yeah but lowecur, the CRJ900 also has a maximum certificated seat configuration of over 70 seats, so if we are talking about DL code, then the CRJ900 would also not be a permitted aircraft.

 

[dtfl]

Wil - good post. Finally....some voice of reason and not the typical "Regional Jet Wives Club" rant. I understand the position of the Regional carriers....and had I not went the AF route - I would be where you are. With the same big pic attitude. People give the mainline guys crap for our posts...but...we still paid our dues...just not "flying to mins" as one guy argued (*)...we did it dodging SAMs. (well I did)(*) and we appreciate the hell out of you guys and what you do for the whole company (and for letting me on the jumpseat AND for the young hot FAs ) You do it dealing with dorks and watching our union call the shots and drive us to......? (*)
Thanks again for that big pic post.
DLSlug and General. You always post good info (*) and I really look forward to it. Please continue and do not worry about the fact that you are both held personally responsible for the terrible scope clauses, the companies woes, believing everything you read, the expansion of LCCs, the open skies treaty, the 9/11 attacks, Friends being canceled, the Batchelor choosing that one girl, ....etc, etc.
On a pos. note. That short notice recall list is getting shorter, eh?
The "elitist" (my new name from some in the RJWC)

(*) = portions of my post that those miscreants with nothing better to do might flame. So..if yall do...you have proved me right.

 

[skiddriver]

...we did it dodging SAMs. (well I did).

You aren't the only one sports fan.

 

[54fighting]

He, he, he!!! Nice reply skiddriver, I like. I guess if you are at a regional, you couldn't possibly be a military pilot

 

[80drvr]

Knock, knock, Hello McFly, is anyone home??? I'm talking about the 100 seater. Unless I'm wrong, any rates in effect for 100 seaters would not be competitive with B6, MAA, SKW, or Republic.

I know you're talking about the 100 seater. We have a pay rate for the 100 seater at AA. It's currently what management would call "competetitive" for that guage aircraft. Do you happen to know what Gerard Arpey's thoughts are on adding a new fleet type? How about B6 pay for 100 seats?

Pilot costs are not necessarily the make or break ingredient of a competetive CASM or product.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

It's all about survival, General Lee

General Lee wrote:

<<Can you (DCI pilots) get off your EXPANSION HORSE for one minute and let some of the pilots on the street come back to work?>>

How can Delta survive if it has to pay some B-757 gear-bitch TWICE AS MUCH as a CJ-70 Captain??

Do the math.

We all want to make as much money as we can for as little work as possible. But the parasite-mentality you mainliners have right now will kill the host, then we're all out of jobs. I'd love to see the look on your face the day you show up for your new job flying checks in a Seneca........the fuel's blue, must be spoiled.....what's a magneto?

It's not labor-vs-management anymore........

.......it's labor-vs-cheap labor. LCC's. Sorry to say. But it's the truth.

 

[Ted Striker]

Why would some ASA or Comair pilot want to start over again at the bottom of the DAL seniority list to fly a 100 seat aircraft if they could stay at ASA or Comair and fly the same aircraft from the top of the seniority list?

Why be DAL furlough fodder when you could have a great schedule and a secure job at ASA or Comair? The better schedule and benefits at DAL? Well, I have a feeling that they won't be so much better than ASA and Comair after CH11.

Guys that have been here at ASA and then to DAL, UAL, etc...have told me that the worst day at Delta is better than the best day at ASA. Our scheduling sucks, we have NO work rules, the pay is marginal for what we do, zero retirement, management has heads firmly planted in each other's a$$es, how many more reasons do you need sleepy? Why do you think your job is so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** secure at ASA? What is stopping us from being replaced, sold, or shipped off? Not a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing.

Put the 100 seaters at mainline. Like Wil said, the majority of us know our "role" in the family and do it to the best of our abilities and with pride. We try to take the best care of our passengers as our company will let us. The majority of us would jump at a staple on the DAL list. I even had a guy the other day with a sub 200 seniority number say that. He did also say that a few of his more senior colleagues would balk, but you know what??? They are the minority of the pilot group now, so that doesn't really matter what they think.

 

[lowecur]

I know you're talking about the 100 seater. We have a pay rate for the 100 seater at AA. It's currently what management would call "competetitive" for that guage aircraft. Do you happen to know what Gerard Arpey's thoughts are on adding a new fleet type? How about B6 pay for 100 seats?

Pilot costs are not necessarily the make or break ingredient of a competetive CASM or product.

It's not competitive at all. The only 100 seater AMR had was the F-100, and those rates would not cut it in todays environment.

B6 is not taking delivery of the 190 for at least 1 year. You can bet the rates will probably be a tad better than Republic, SKW, and MAA. They will probably release the rates once there is a further shake out for the 100 seater, so as they have a good handle on where they need to be.

To answer your question on Arpey, yes I do know his thoughts. He would like the 190, but he has a mainline pilot group that does not want to give him the rates he needs to purchase it. Eagle has offered to fly the plane, but if he gave it to them, mainline would mutiny. My thoughts on what will happen is that the pilots for mainline will wait to see what happens with DL. If DL incorporates the 190 into mainline at B6 rates, then they will follow and you will see an order for the 190 from AMR mainline. Here's an article to look at:

October 17, 2003

Mr. Peter Bowler, President
American Eagle Airlines
1700 West 20th Street
PO Box 612527
DFW Airport, Texas 74261-2527

Dear Peter,

On Oct. 17, Gerard Arpey was quoted in a Dallas Morning News article as saying that he would like to sit down with the unions "to try and figure out if we need a 100-seat airplane."

Knowing that AMR has a corporate interest in this issue, the pilots of American Eagle, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, would like to inform you of our interest in placing larger aircraft, such as the EMB 190 at our carrier. We believe the American Eagle cost structure provides an inherent advantage in any effort to compete in markets with lower cost carriers such as JetBlue Airways.

American Eagle is a robust company that can expand nicely into markets that cannot be profitably served by American Airlines as it is currently structured. With the advent of Small Jet aircraft in the 70-seat-plus range, we believe that Eagle is uniquely positioned to take advantage of the growth in this particular market sector. Additionally, since American Eagle already operates Embraer aircraft, transitioning pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, and ramp workers to the EMB 170/175/190/195 poses obvious advantages due to Eagle's cost structure and commonality with our current Embraer aircraft.

We would be happy to discuss the details of this matter with you at your convenience.

Sincerely,

/s/

Capt. Herb Mark
Chairman
Eagle ALPA MEC

 

[sleepy]

It seems to me that the blow that ends the 50 seat and below RJ market is coming from the FAA. These new pax weights of 190 and 195 plus the 30# baggage weight are too much for the RJ. We are already having to bump pax and baggage at an alarming rate. The only thing that will be able to make a profit are 70 seat and above aircraft.

My point was that after Ch11 the pay and work rules for a 100 seat aircraft at DAL mainline will not be that much better than the would be at ASA or Comair to justify starting over at the bottom of the DAL list to get them.

I don't see how DAL can not get some more 70 to 100 seat RJ to continue serving certain markets in light of the new pax weights. I think that many small markets will lose airline service pretty soon. Once again (just like with the post 911 security mess), the government is kicking the airlines while they are down.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Guys that have been here at ASA and then to DAL, UAL, etc...have told me that the worst day at Delta is better than the best day at ASA. Our scheduling sucks, we have NO work rules, the pay is marginal for what we do, zero retirement, management has heads firmly planted in each other's a$$es, how many more reasons do you need sleepy? Why do you think your job is so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** secure at ASA? What is stopping us from being replaced, sold, or shipped off? Not a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing.

Put the 100 seaters at mainline. Like Wil said, the majority of us know our "role" in the family and do it to the best of our abilities and with pride. We try to take the best care of our passengers as our company will let us. The majority of us would jump at a staple on the DAL list. I even had a guy the other day with a sub 200 seniority number say that. He did also say that a few of his more senior colleagues would balk, but you know what??? They are the minority of the pilot group now, so that doesn't really matter what they think.

Striker,
You are comparing ASA to DAL. If you compare CMR to the "new mainline" pay and workrules, you start to get a blurring of the line between good jobs and bad jobs. USAirways pilots just countered with payrates below America Wests which puts them just slightly above CMR. United pilots now only have the FARS for scheduling and are averaging 13 days off. USAirways pension plan gone. Uniteds is next. There isn't much difference now between the "new" mainlines and the better regionals - especially if you have some seniority at the regional.

 

[DL_Infidel]

General Lee wrote:

<<Can you (DCI pilots) get off your EXPANSION HORSE for one minute and let some of the pilots on the street come back to work?>>

How can Delta survive if it has to pay some B-757 gear-bitch TWICE AS MUCH as a CJ-70 Captain??

Do the math.

We all want to make as much money as we can for as little work as possible. But the parasite-mentality you mainliners have right now will kill the host, then we're all out of jobs. I'd love to see the look on your face the day you show up for your new job flying checks in a Seneca........the fuel's blue, must be spoiled.....what's a magneto?

It's not labor-vs-management anymore........

.......it's labor-vs-cheap labor. LCC's. Sorry to say. But it's the truth.

/G-man,

Where do you get this crap from? Again, another tool gleefully anticipating the demise of someone's livelihood.

You obviously haven't done "the math" if you think our "parasite-mentality" is bringing down mother D. You and your cohorts really need to educate yourselves if you think gutting our contract is the only answer to Delta's woes.

Posting garbage like "757 gear-bitch" and "I'd love to see the look on your face..." is inflamatory and serves no one but yourself.


DL_Kaffir
BTW, it will always be labor vs. management.
Thankful I'm returning to the B757 to "swing the gear."

 

[ALCOHOLIC]

your a moron..

Striker,
You are comparing ASA to DAL. If you compare CMR to the "new mainline" pay and workrules, you start to get a blurring of the line between good jobs and bad jobs. USAirways pilots just countered with payrates below America Wests which puts them just slightly above CMR. United pilots now only have the FARS for scheduling and are averaging 13 days off. USAirways pension plan gone. Uniteds is next. There isn't much difference now between the "new" mainlines and the better regionals - especially if you have some seniority at the regional.

A third year f/o at US (not that there are any) makes $89/hour. How many pilots at comair make that.... If they gave another 20% they still would be making more money than the majority of the comair pilots. And that is at third year pay...!

knowledge is power!!!

 

[wms]

All aircraft larger than what we are flying now should go to ML, including the -900; not that there would be a choice due to the PWA. This would help us in our negotiations by giving us a higher standard to go for due to the similar type.

Unfortunately, there are some here who would sell themselves out and fly -73s for $80, and not even be embarrased about it. But they are a small minority, so the DAL pilots shouldn't worry. Most would rather have the aircraft go somewhere else where there would be a future, not here to secure a future with a puddle-jumper.

There are already -700 routes that are consistently over-sold and could go back to ML, and I predict that when DAL and DALPA come to an agreement that is what will happen in a big way. I don't like the idea of my future being negotiated by proxy, but as long as DMEC does the right thing, I like it a lot better than having it mismanaged here.

DCI being under the DAL VP Flight Ops instead of the CFO will hopefully slow down this DCI portfolio concept, and better utilize all aircraft.

 

[General Lee]

WMS,


Finally, some people are coming to realize what you are saying. We want a larger Delta, not a larger DCI and a smaller Delta. A larger Delta creates more jobs that have better perks. A larger DCI and smaller Delta brings down wages and benefits--except at the management level..... Good post WMS.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

A third year f/o at US (not that there are any) makes $89/hour. How many pilots at comair make that.... If they gave another 20% they still would be making more money than the majority of the comair pilots. And that is at third year pay...!

knowledge is power!!!

Knowledge is power, so let's look at where things are headed however. The EMB170 is a "mainline" airplane at USAirways. The pilots are on the mainline seniority list . They have 85 on order with options for 50 more. The pay rate maxes out for Capt. at $90.62 after 18 years and FO rate tops out at $36.39. How long will someone fly the E170 before they get up to the larger airplanes? With the payrates being proposed by ALPA, the 737/A320 Capt. rate will top out at about $134.00 after 12 years. I would be losing money every year until I made it to the 737. Even then, I would only be slightly above what I am currently making at ASA. All the while I would have a much worse schedule. Sorry, it isn't what it used to be and it is getting worse.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

DLslug,


You are a wise man. Many of the DCI pilots see their role as primary---when they are really used to "connect" passengers to our flights primarily.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Gen, that is what we ALL do. Your role is no diff than mine. We all ARE USED TO BRING PAX TO CONNECT .

When my airplane rolls up to C30 in CVG, and yours rolls up to B30 in CVG, a majority of the paxs from both airplanes are going to connect to other Delta / DCI flights. There is no difference. This was an argument I made during our strike, and I still stand by it.

So, as you can see, we do the same thing for the same airline.

You ARE beginning to sound a lot like mgt.