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Delta to London Heathrow?

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General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Delta scoops slots at Heathrow (from London Times)

ONE of America’s biggest airlines has stunned industry experts by securing enough Heathrow runway slots to start services there next April when a new open-skies regime will open up the airport.

Delta has gained access to Heathrow’s runways after negotiations with Air France and KLM, its European partner airlines, according to chief executive Gerald Grinstein.

This will be a blow to BA and Virgin. Before open skies, only they and two other airlines - American and United - could fly from Heathrow to the US. The two British carriers tried to stop open skies, but thought damage would be limited by the difficulty new entrants encounter in gaining access to Heathrow. Its runways are full, with take-off and landing slots the most highly prized in world aviation. Pairs have changed hands for £10m.

Analysts expect Delta to fly twice a day to New York, and once to Atlanta, its main hub.

Delta rises again on new wings
Grinstein said: “We will have the slots available to us.” He did not specify whether Air France or KLM would provide them. But he noted that “the economics of flights from London to Charles de Gaulle [Paris’s main airport] have certainly changed since the opening of the Channel tunnel”.

KLM and Air France are likely to codeshare on the Delta flights, which means that, for the first time, airlines from the Continent will have their codes on a service from Heathrow to the US. Delta, Air France and KLM are all part of the “Skyteam” alliance, which competes with the Oneworld alliance led by British Airways.

Delta’s success in finding slots at Heathrow may cause analysts to reassess the impact of open skies on BA, which makes the lion’s share of its profits from its North Atlantic routes. Its New York-London flights are particularly important.

Other big US carriers are likely to follow Delta’s lead. Insiders suggest KLM, which operates some of the few remaining services into Heathrow with small tur-boprop aircraft, may provide slots to Northwest Airlines, while Aer Lingus yesterday confirmed it had received approaches about its Heathrow slot holding. It said, however, that it had no plans to change its operations there.

Andrew Lobbenberg of ABN Amro recently estimated that open skies could reduce the prof-itability of BA’s American services by 25%-53%.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Last edited:
Big winners: DAL/CAL/NWA/UAIR
Big Losers: AAL/UAL/Everyone else that's been enjoying an unfair monopoly at LHR.
 
Big winners: DAL/CAL/NWA/UAIR
Big Losers: AAL/UAL/Everyone else that's been enjoying an unfair monopoly at LHR.


Under the big winners you forgot to list British Midland. They hold 40% of the LHR slots. As far as Big Losers go, in my opinion every U.S. airline loses.
Yes LHR opens up in Mar 2008. In the next round of open skies the EU wants cabotage in the U.S. and they want foreign ownership of U.S. carriers. This does not bode well for U.S. airline employees legacy or llc.
 
Big winners: DAL/CAL/NWA/UAIR
Big Losers: AAL/UAL/Everyone else that's been enjoying an unfair monopoly at LHR.


Under the big winners you forgot to list British Midland. They hold 40% of the LHR slots. As far as Big Losers go, in my opinion every U.S. airline loses.
Yes LHR opens up in Mar 2008. In the next round of open skies the EU wants cabotage in the U.S. and they want foreign ownership of U.S. carriers. This does not bode well for U.S. airline employees legacy or llc.

There will still be a max percentage of ownership, so foreign airlines will not own over 49%. (thanks to our airlines having to be able to provide MAC airlift during any conflicts) That won't mean much to U.S. Airline employees at all. Foreign airlines will still not be able to fly intra US, just like we won't fly flights within England. It just won't happen. Congress would be pressured by US companies to stop that, and they would if it came to that.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
How can foreign ownership be any worse than the scumbags running/ruining our lives now? From what I can tell the euro carriers have a much better pay/benefit package then we do, and have been profitable of late. I am sure someone will point out the negatives of the euros but you don't seem to hear of them taking 40% paycuts and rewarding the mgts.
 
How can foreign ownership be any worse than the scumbags running/ruining our lives now? From what I can tell the euro carriers have a much better pay/benefit package then we do, and have been profitable of late. I am sure someone will point out the negatives of the euros but you don't seem to hear of them taking 40% paycuts and rewarding the mgts.

We would have better credit with the banks, thanks to their deep pockets. The only bad thing might be that we might have to wear barets instead of hats (if AF buys 49% of us...) :)

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Guys who know better can correct me BUT this will most likely never happen because the Open Skies Agreement will most likely never happen. Why do you say???

To get the British Government to agree to the Open Sky Agreement, BA, .i.e, British Airways - owner of most of the Heathrow slots, had an eleventh hour caveat placed into the Open Skies Agreement which states, not a quote mind you, but unless the US agrees to allow non US domestic airlines to pick up passengers in the US and continue onto another US destination then the agreement is dead and does not go into effect in March 2008, i.e., BA flies from London to JFK drops off and re boards passengers then heads onto LAX which is what the European and Canadian carriers want very badly.

I can't see that happening by March 2008, but I could be wrong!!! It has happened in the past.
 
Guys who know better can correct me BUT this will most likely never happen because the Open Skies Agreement will most likely never happen. Why do you say???

To get the British Government to agree to the Open Sky Agreement, BA, .i.e, British Airways - owner of most of the Heathrow slots, had an eleventh hour caveat placed into the Open Skies Agreement which states, not a quote mind you, but unless the US agrees to allow non US domestic airlines to pick up passengers in the US and continue onto another US destination then the agreement is dead and does not go into effect in March 2008, i.e., BA flies from London to JFK drops off and re boards passengers then heads onto LAX which is what the European and Canadian carriers want very badly.

I can't see that happening by March 2008, but I could be wrong!!! It has happened in the past.

They can probably fly their own passengers onto LA, but not new ones. That is different. Qantas flies a 744 3 days a week from LAX to JFK, with passengers that either connect in LAX from Brisbane, Melbourne,SYD, or Auckland (yes Auckland), and onto JFK. I bet that will be allowed by this accord. They will not advertise and fly new US passengers from JFK to LAX.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
They can probably fly their own passengers onto LA, but not new ones. That is different. Qantas flies a 744 3 days a week from LAX to JFK, with passengers that either connect in LAX from Brisbane, Melbourne,SYD, or Auckland (yes Auckland), and onto JFK. I bet that will be allowed by this accord. They will not advertise and fly new US passengers from JFK to LAX.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General;

That's the caveat. They, non-US carriers, want that changed. Unless that is changed and they are allowed to pick-up new pax in NY or BOS and fly them to LAX or SFO or where ever the Open Skies Agreement dies.

I don't see the US Government allowing that change, because all the US domestic carriers will lobby hard against that change, but I could be wrong!!
 
General;

That's the caveat. They, non-US carriers, want that changed. Unless that is changed and they are allowed to pick-up new pax in NY or BOS and fly them to LAX or SFO or where ever the Open Skies Agreement dies.

I don't see the US Government allowing that change, because all the US domestic carriers will lobby hard against that change, but I could be wrong!!

I don't think that was agreed to at all. Our Gov't would not allow that, and the agreements would never have happened. The deal breaker was allowing some foreign ownership, (a la Branson owning more than 25%) and that may go up to 49% later on. Please show me where it states that European airlines will be allowed to fly intra US. I can see it as a tag on with their own passengers who stop in JFK for a few days and then go onto LAX, but not US passengers. No way.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
For Europeans, ownership and cabotage--rights to carry passengers between any points within the U.S.--will have high priority in the next round of negotiations, and in their ratification vote, the transport ministers gave member states a stick to go with the usual bargaining carrots.

The next talks must begin within 60 days of the first stage's entry into force--delayed at the insistence of the U.K. from Oct. 28, 2007, until Mar. 30, 2008, the scheduled opening of Heathrow's Terminal 5. And in another U.K. addition, any EU nation unhappy with the state of negotiations 12 months after they begin would be allowed to suspend traffic rights--such as rights of new entrants at Heathrow--contained in the first-stage pact.

Full article

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw040207p3.xml
 
How about the customers? Do they win or lose in this? After all, it is all about the customer. .

Tejas, the interview is over.

(Just joshin') ;)
 
For Europeans, ownership and cabotage--rights to carry passengers between any points within the U.S.--will have high priority in the next round of negotiations, and in their ratification vote, the transport ministers gave member states a stick to go with the usual bargaining carrots.

The next talks must begin within 60 days of the first stage's entry into force--delayed at the insistence of the U.K. from Oct. 28, 2007, until Mar. 30, 2008, the scheduled opening of Heathrow's Terminal 5. And in another U.K. addition, any EU nation unhappy with the state of negotiations 12 months after they begin would be allowed to suspend traffic rights--such as rights of new entrants at Heathrow--contained in the first-stage pact.

Full article

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw040207p3.xml

The problem with this, and it was good you found this article, is that other airlines in the UK, like British Midland (BMI), will have already started flying to multiple US destinations (probably one flight a day to each) and will object to the suspension of routes. They just bought BMED from British Airways, and now have 100s of slots at LHR, which they plan to use for the new agreement. Also, the highlighted area above does NOT state that there has to be intra US flights for the routes to be suspended, only that if talks aren't going well for any EU nation, routes could be suspended---IE at LHR. It doesn't mean they will, and talks don't mean that it will happen. They can negotiate all they want, but I still don't see any EU airline flying planes intra US, and there certainly isn't any room for them anyway here. How many open gates do you see at any large US airport? Doubtful. We can barely get a gate at LHR after BA moves to their new terminal. I don't see many new opportunities for any EU airline here. Can you give any examples of any room available to those carriers? Maybe a COS base.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
deleted,

no use anyway

It is good you know when to quit. Some people can't debate at all, and it shows, and they still do it.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 

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