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Delta to add service from Seattle to Boise, Denver, Ketchikan, Sitka, and boost more

bluesideup1

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That's a huge stretch. Paying for a hotel during training is not pay for training. Signing a training contract or being required to have a type prior to class is paying for training. Regardless of how one spins it, I hope that changes with the next contract.

What if they were required to have an ATP would that be paying for training? I know you took a swipe at SW for requiring the type but there are many that had the type from previous jobs and they paid nothing during training. So how is it that the pilots of SW that don't pay anything during training are some how a "pay for training" airline. While the delta pilots who do pay money during their training are not?
 

CaptETWes

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What if they were required to have an ATP would that be paying for training? I know you took a swipe at SW for requiring the type but there are many that had the type from previous jobs and they paid nothing during training. So how is it that the pilots of SW that don't pay anything during training are some how a "pay for training" airline. While the delta pilots who do pay money during their training are not?


Hotel costs are only required if you don't live in ATL during sim training. As hiring stays consistent, more and more will be doing theirs in MIA for example. That's company paid. From my perspective, most of the people I know at SW or who want to be there bought the type just to be considered. I'd like to know where SW would be today if they paid for the types for every pilot they've hired over their existence. What's more unfair? A $5-8k type (usually on the hopes and dreams of getting an interview)? Or a roughly $500-1500 hotel cost for a couple of weeks? A pilot who lives in ATL or knows family, et al, therefore doesn't pay for training? I'm not defending the contract language at DAL. Hell, I get the business case for SW requiring its pilots to have the type prior to class. But to suggest that a couple of weeks worth of hotels is somehow more significant than buying an entire type - which requires...what for it...training - is horribly misleading. Also, which of these options would be easier to swing financially (if someone didn't have the type prior to class at SW)?

My point really had nothing to do with SW. The person I originally quoted claimed that straight-up hotel costs were somehow a pay-for-training scheme. Personally, I'd rather face the hotel expense after knowing I had the job than on a wing and a prayer hoping I'd get called after getting the type for SW. As for your ATP question, that doesn't apply here. First, everyone is now required to have it per the FAA. Second, I paid for every bit of my training and certification from 0 hours until I got my CFI. Does that mean I sinned against the god of aviation for doing so?
 

EngineThunder

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That's a huge stretch. Paying for a hotel during training is not pay for training. Signing a training contract or being required to have a type prior to class is paying for training. Regardless of how one spins it, I hope that changes with the next contract.

The General has stated before on here that if it benefits the company, from a cost perspective, that it is PFT. Paying for your own hotel during training most definitely benefits the company.

Didn't intend to open up this debate again, just reminding GLEE of his previous comments.
 

Mea25000

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Everyone knew the 757 was too big, but it sure did a number on your monopoly and profits for that route, and it apparently didn't dent the estimated $4.2 billion profit this year at DL. And as long as there is some sort of DL plane on your routes, the less money you get to charge. You lose. Wut wut? Yeah, you do. Every time you see a DL Widebody in SEA, you probably krap your pants. The answer for you? Buy more pants....



Bye Bye---General Lee

That is a stupid comment. We had a 21% profit margin in Q3, 7 percent better then yours. We made money on SEA- JUN and you guys did not. How do I know.. well because there will be a Delta RJ up there next summer. Did you guys shave off a few dollars from some of our routes.. Yes you did. Did we shave off a few dollars of profit from some of your routes.. Yes we did. Both companies had record setting Q3's. No buddy's Dad beat up the other Dad. It's called competition and well to be honest it was actually pretty begnine on both accounts. The question you should be asking is why was RA so intent on wooing the AS MEC.. So much so that AS brass told them "We don't want you talking to him anymore"... Now that is a very good question to ponder.
 
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bluesideup1

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Hotel costs are only required if you don't live in ATL during sim training. As hiring stays consistent, more and more will be doing theirs in MIA for example. That's company paid. From my perspective, most of the people I know at SW or who want to be there bought the type just to be considered. I'd like to know where SW would be today if they paid for the types for every pilot they've hired over their existence. What's more unfair? A $5-8k type (usually on the hopes and dreams of getting an interview)? Or a roughly $500-1500 hotel cost for a couple of weeks? A pilot who lives in ATL or knows family, et al, therefore doesn't pay for training? I'm not defending the contract language at DAL. Hell, I get the business case for SW requiring its pilots to have the type prior to class. But to suggest that a couple of weeks worth of hotels is somehow more significant than buying an entire type - which requires...what for it...training - is horribly misleading. Also, which of these options would be easier to swing financially (if someone didn't have the type prior to class at SW)?

My point really had nothing to do with SW. The person I originally quoted claimed that straight-up hotel costs were somehow a pay-for-training scheme. Personally, I'd rather face the hotel expense after knowing I had the job than on a wing and a prayer hoping I'd get called after getting the type for SW. As for your ATP question, that doesn't apply here. First, everyone is now required to have it per the FAA. Second, I paid for every bit of my training and certification from 0 hours until I got my CFI. Does that mean I sinned against the god of aviation for doing so?

So what you are saying is it is only pay for training if it costs a lot?

Because as one who didn't have the type before getting hired I don't see the difference. I also know plenty who got the type off the government dole by either going through the military or job retraining programs. They also had them from other airlines so many paid nothing to get the job at Southwest.

I lived in and based out of Dallas and I still got a paid hotel room for both initial ground school and upgrade. (was nice to get away from the distractions of home during parts of training).

BTW I think it is a stupid requirement and should be done away with as there are at least 1,700 now on the list that did not have to get a type before becoming a SW pilot.
 

General Lee

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That is a stupid comment. We had a 21% profit margin in Q3, 7 percent better then yours. We made money on SEA- JUN and you guys did not. How do I know.. well because there will be a Delta RJ up there next summer. Did you guys shave off a few dollars from some of our routes.. Yes you did. Did we shave off a few dollars of profit from some of your routes.. Yes we did. Both companies had record setting Q3's. No buddy's Dad beat up the other Dad. It's called competition and well to be honest it was actually pretty begnine on both accounts. The question you should be asking is why was RA so intent on wooing the AS MEC.. So much so that AS brass told them "We don't want you talking to him anymore"... Now that is a very good question to ponder.

Pure bunk. You made less due to DL going to JNU. There is no doubt in that. The 757 was too big for the route, but at the time that was the only fleet that had sufficient numbers of line check pilots available, and plane wise the 757 could handle the apps.

As far as RA talking to your MEC, I have no idea why, but the more overlap of routes, the less of a chance the Govt will allow any merger. That's fine with most DL pilots, internal expansion is always preferable.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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Old School 737

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The JNU runway is closed this summer .. Landing on the taxiway .. 757 prob 2 big ? and wasnt it used becase it still has and ADF and the 737 did not that's why delta had to make the switch .. When they figured out that little Issue??
 

General Lee

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The JNU runway is closed this summer .. Landing on the taxiway .. 757 prob 2 big ? and wasnt it used becase it still has and ADF and the 737 did not that's why delta had to make the switch .. When they figured out that little Issue??

Which 737 type does AK use there? The 737-400? Why were they used vs the NGs?


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Jetjockey

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Delta is so super awesome....there isn't anything that can ever go wrong there. They are super lucky to have such knowledgeable people Like Genny Lee.....we should all be so envious. Double breasted suit envy...NOT
 

General Lee

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Delta is so super awesome....there isn't anything that can ever go wrong there. They are super lucky to have such knowledgeable people Like Genny Lee.....we should all be so envious. Double breasted suit envy...NOT

Yep, you do sound incredibly jealous. Hey look, here's another announcement of more SEA flights this upcoming Summer. Can you believe up to 6 daily mainline flights between SEA and ANC round trip? When was the last time anyone put that much of a challenge to Alaska Air on their signature route?


Update at 0720GMT 28NOV14

DELTA in Summer 2015 season is introducing additional daily service on a number of markets from Seattle, which includes the following.
Seattle - Anchorage eff 04JUN15 Increase from 4 to 5 daily (6 daily from 29JUN15)
Seattle - Atlanta eff 01MAY15 Increase from 6 to 7 daily
Seattle - Calgary eff 07APR15 Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Seattle - Los Angeles eff 04JUN15 Increase from 7 to 8 daily
Seattle - San Francisco eff 04JUN15 Increase from 7 to 8 daily





Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

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GL

Would you be happy to see DAL put Alaska out of business?

No, I have friends there. But, I have a couple specific issues with DL/AK. First, I'd rather have DL mainline doing West Coast flying, especially feeding the SEA hub. For years after the DL BK, Alaska Air did the North/South West Coast flying for DL under a codeshare agreement. That wasn't good for DL mainline pilots. Next, AK's waffling with DL on "exclusivity." When AK did become DL's "friend", and then started "courting" other carriers like Emirates and AA, all the while still doing almost all of the DL West Coast flying, that ticked off a lot of people. It was a bit "arrogant", and the recent build up of DL in SEA has put a smile on my face.

So no, I don't personally want AK out of business, and I have no problem with their pilot group. But, they need to understand what type of position their management put them in, and realize they are in an uphill battle. Not all of it is personal, DL is just in the process of moving the Narita hub to SEA, and AK was fairly full and couldn't offer the seats DL wanted to feed the INTL connections. That turned out well for the DL mainline pilots. But they shouldn't expect DL to just offer limited connections, plans are for 200 plus flights a day. If DL is going to invest in that, it will be huge, and billions per year in profits will fund it.

JMO btw.... ;)



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

msmb

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Oh Jenny.... It's all delta's flying isn't it?? Who is arrogant?? Please, the delta pilot group has ALWAYS thought their poop didn't stink! That's why they suck! I've been with Alaska for 25 plus years and I've seen this competition come and go.... Guess what? Alaska is still here. So let's let the market decide... Good luck and fly safe.
 

RNP.15

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Oh Jenny.... It's all delta's flying isn't it?? Who is arrogant?? Please, the delta pilot group has ALWAYS thought their poop didn't stink! That's why they suck! I've been with Alaska for 25 plus years and I've seen this competition come and go.... Guess what? Alaska is still here. So let's let the market decide... Good luck and fly safe.

Amen, I've seen SWA, UAL, AMR, Reno and others try to run Alaska out of SEA. We just continue to do our thing. Oh and make money while doing it. We're SEA's boutique airline and Seattleites like it that way. And yes the market will dictate.
 

General Lee

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Oh Jenny.... It's all delta's flying isn't it?? Who is arrogant?? Please, the delta pilot group has ALWAYS thought their poop didn't stink! That's why they suck! I've been with Alaska for 25 plus years and I've seen this competition come and go.... Guess what? Alaska is still here. So let's let the market decide... Good luck and fly safe.

The market will decide, and one of the sides will make $6 billion in profit next year if oil stays low. That's important, primarily because that will fund even more expansion.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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