Delta talks with pilots 'intense'

[FDJ2]

Delta talks with pilots 'intense'
Union offer on pay cuts presented

By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 10/12/04

With a possible bankruptcy filing looming, Delta Air Lines and its pilots
union are stepping up their efforts to reach a concessions deal considered
crucial to the airline's recovery efforts.

Union leaders head to Florida this week to huddle among themselves and with
colleagues from other carriers, but they say they will continue talks there
with Delta negotiators.

The two sides now use terms like "intense" and "comprehensive" to describe
talks since Delta announced a 10 percent pay cut for other workers and said
it may file for Chapter 11 within weeks if pilots and creditors don't agree
to cost savings.

"We gave the company a comprehensive proposal on Friday night," said Karen
Miller, of the Delta unit of the Air Line Pilots Association. She declined
to say whether it sweetened the union's previous offer, which it valued at
up to $705 million a year.

Miller said union negotiators hope to continue talks with Delta this week
while the union's leaders begin meeting today in Fort Lauderdale. They will
stay there next week for the biennial meeting of the national union, which
represents about 50,000 pilots at several carriers.

Negotiations are "concentrating and intense because as we've said before, we
have weeks to reach an agreement," said Delta spokesman John Kennedy. He
added that company negotiators will go to Florida to stay in close touch
with pilots.

Delta wants more than $1 billion worth of pay cuts and other concessions
annually, plus changes in scheduling work rules whose value was not included
in that total, according to ALPA.

Miller said the two sides have "made progress" on proposed work rule changes
that would allow Delta to schedule pilots more efficiently.

"I think most importantly, they've reached some agreements on what the
different changes would equal in terms of cost savings," Miller said.

"But on the bigger issues, I don't know how close we've gotten" to an
agreement, she said.

Delta pilots are the highest-paid in the industry under a contract inked
three months before Sept. 11, 2001. The gap has widened since United,
American and US Airways pilots all agreed to cuts. A typical midcareer Delta
captain makes around $200,000 a year.

Miller said the most recent union proposal addresses a wider range of issues
than the work rule changes discussed so far, but she declined to elaborate.

Prospects for an agreement appear to have improved. One factor is a side
deal pilots OK'd to allow Delta to hire back retiring pilots to keep all its
planes airborne. That followed a wave of early retirements that threatened
to disrupt staffing.

Also, Delta's moves to cut more jobs and salaries of nonunion workers -
including executives - partially satisfies a union demand that other
employees, bondholders and vendors share in the cost-cutting.

Any deal between Delta and union negotiators would have to gain union
members' approval.

Some industry experts speculate that some pilots would rather take their
chances with a bankruptcy judge, who can decide what concessions Delta
needs, rather than accept the company's demands for deep pay cuts now plus
more pay cuts later if Delta ultimately files for Chapter 11 anyway.

Delta executives have said there is no guarantee the airline can avoid
Chapter 11 even with a pilot deal. Recent run-ups in fuel prices are
undermining the airline's recovery efforts.

Last week, Smith Barney analyst Dan McKenzie said that before agreeing to a
deal, pilots will want assurance that Delta won't terminate their pension
plan if it later goes into bankruptcy court. Delta can't provide that
assurance, he said.

But Miller, the ALPA spokeswoman, said few pilots seem to take that stand
anyway.

"I have not heard pilots saying we're better off in bankruptcy other than a
few chat room postings," she said. "I think it's in everyone's interest to
avoid bankruptcy, where all parties lose control to the bankruptcy court. By
reaching an agreement with management outside of bankruptcy, both parties
can help shape the contract."

 

[Justino]

Delta pilots offer a new contract proposal
Wed Oct 13, 2004 05:05 PM ET
NEW YORK, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research) pilots, who have been negotiating a slew of employment issues with company management, have offered a new contract proposal that includes issues that haven't been discussed in more than two months, the pilot's union said on Wednesday.
"We did give management a counter on Friday night," said Karen Miller of the Air Line Pilots Association in an e-mailed statement. "We expect negotiations to continue this week.

"We've been exchanging proposals all along on work rules," Miller added. "The Friday proposal just included other issues that we haven't discussed since late July."

No further details were immediately available and Delta representatives were not immediately available to comment.

Investors saw the news as a positive for the stock since a new contract that reduced employment costs could help Delta avoid having to file for bankruptcy. Shares closed up 21 percent.

"There's speculation that the pilots may be willing to take some concessions rather than see the company go into bankruptcy and launch them out of a job," said Craig Hodges, a fund manager for Hodges Capital Management.

Delta shares closed up 67 cents at $3.80.

 

[FDJ2]

"We did give management a counter on Friday night," said Karen Miller of the Air Line Pilots Association in an e-mailed statement. "We expect negotiations to continue this week.

"We've been exchanging proposals all along on work rules," Miller added. "The Friday proposal just included other issues that we haven't discussed since late July."

No further details were immediately available and Delta representatives were not immediately available to comment.

Back in July DALPA offered DAL management a proposal worth approximately $705M/year, which GG, very publicly, summarily dismissed. Management then countered with their first comprehensive proposal that was way out in left field. DALPA immediately and very publicly dismissed managements proposal as far too broad, too onerous and including several items that had nothing to do with economic factors. In effect management over reached. John Malone wrote a letter to all DAL pilots in August which in essence indicated that DALPA was done negotiating with this management team, which Malone felt had lost all credibility, and that it was now time to seek another path. GG immediately retreated and claimed that he was misunderstood and implored the DALPA negotiators to come back to the table.

With that as background, consider the latest developments and possibilities. There seems to have been on going substantive negotiations, and apparently a proposal put forth last Friday which has not been summarily dismissed. Both parties have been relatively tight lipped, but apparently fine tuning what I believe to be a soon to be released TA. Just a hunch, but I would not be surprised to see a TA in the next couple of weeks.

Given the logistics of the ratification process I don't suspect membership voting on a TA of this magnitude to be complete until close to December or possibly into December (one week for MEC debate and ratification, followed by about 30 days of membership education and voting). The new PWA would then most likely not be implemented until January, which incidently, also happens to be the date when the non contract take backs go into effect. My big disclaimer, this is just a hunch.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I concurr from my sources. Looks like a possible TA announcement in the next two weeks. Looks like a J4J deal may very well be included. One requirement from Kolshak was unlimited CRJ-700's ( but Delta currently has unlimited CRJ700's with Delta pilots performing the flying - so other than undercutting current DCI pilots, what is the change?) Growth seems to be in the plans, once a competitive cost structure is delivered ( either through the Courts, or BK )

Disclaimer - my sources on this are not as reliable as others, so this is not in "take it to the bank" mode, not yet anyway.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,


A J4J deal---you mean for the furloughs? I honestly haven't heard anything about that. Please post any RUMORS you have. I have thought for awhile that a TA would be reached eventually....... And, it would be better to have a deal if Chap 11 were inevitable. Let's hope we can avoid it somehow. It looks like Grinstein and company are still trying to work on the creditors and debt holders.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dtfl]

Not being a smart*ss here - could you or someone please explain this statement?

"but Delta currently has unlimited CRJ700's with Delta pilots performing the flying - so other than undercutting current DCI pilots, what is the change?"

 

[180ToTheMarker]

Not being a smart*ss here - could you or someone please explain this statement?

"but Delta currently has unlimited CRJ700's with Delta pilots performing the flying - so other than undercutting current DCI pilots, what is the change?"

Sure, the RJDC guys are worried about losing flying thats not theirs.

 

[DaveGriffin]

The only thing that gives the doormat juniors at Delta any consolation at all, after getting the green weenie from the greedy b*stard seniors and senior wannabes in the retiree rehire TA, is knowng that the DCI guys will get it even worse.

 

[rjcap]

The only thing that gives the doormat juniors at Delta any consolation at all, after getting the green weenie from the greedy b*stard seniors and senior wannabes in the retiree rehire TA, is knowng that the DCI guys will get it even worse.

And how would that be ??

 

[DaveGriffin]

And how would that be ??

A J4J deal that puts furloughees in RJs (maybe even at sub-DCI rates) will take spots that would normally go to DCI guys.

 

[~~~^~~~]

A J4J deal that puts furloughees in RJs (maybe even at sub-DCI rates) will take spots that would normally go to DCI guys.

Exactly

As others have pointed out before, Delta can operate unlimited CRJ700's at mainline. That might have changed with mainline pilots allowed to bid exclusively on growth airplanes at DCI subsidiaries. DL pilots might have offered to do this for second year DCI pay rates. By giving up their DL longevity ( for pay ) they effectively undercut current DCI pilots & get the flying.

But again, I'm way off the reservation with this. Do not consider this a credible post yet.

Other comments from DCI managers indicate that they are very happy with the excellent performance of DL pilots who have come to ( and in many cases returned to ) ASA - however - they would be uncomfortable with putting furloughed pilots straight into the left seat. So who knows how the bid awards will be implemented. Skywest has been used as an example of a "successful jets for jobs program." I'm not sure what that means.

Our ( DCI ) management tells us it is all up to our union, but these sort of ideas are being talked about with ALPA. Unfortunately ALPA has still kept the ASA and Comair Pilot Representatives officially locked out - going as far as to say scope negotiations are simply a "place marker" for future negotiations.

It is my expectation ( given that DL is sending their negotiating team to the BOD ) and all the other indications that at this BOD the mainline ALPA interests will do everything in their power to get ASA and Comair's Rep's to consent to a vague agreement in principle - so when this goes down the ASA and Comair Reps are the political goats.

We hope that the ASA and Comair reps will insist on seeing actual language and they will responsibly take the time to understand it before agreeing to anything they were not allowed to participate in.

But, ultimately ALPA will follow its MO established elsewhere. Either the Connection Reps can agree to the deal, or the airplanes will be diverted elsewhere, to other low paid alter ego carriers ( example - Mid Atlantic ).

The crystal ball is foggy on this one, but I think we will have a lot to write about in the next several weeks. It will be interesting to see how these issues were resolved at Northwest, because we are aware that RJ's were a contentious issue in those negotiations also.

~~~^~~~

 

[dtfl]

huh

As far as I know - the only way a furloughee gets a job in an RJ is if he/she applies/interviews and is hired at the regional airline. This J4J would allow furloughees to work for a DCI?

Well...here is one furloughee that won't. No offense, as I can make more $ being a reserve bum. I can see others who aren't affiliated with the guard or reserve doing it though - they have families to support. I fly as much as I want, go TDY when I want and enjoy as much time off as my nak account will allow - which isn't much...but there is some.

 

[michael707767]

A J4J deal that puts furloughees in RJs (maybe even at sub-DCI rates) will take spots that would normally go to DCI guys.

Actually, I disagree with this statement. Right now, DCI is only allowed 57 70 seaters. So, right now any more 70 seaters will have to be staffed by Delta pilots. Any more 70 seater spots would not go to DCI pilots but would go to Delta pilots. So if a TA has J4Js saying that Delta guys to fly them, what has changed?

 

[michael707767]

But, ultimately ALPA will follow its MO established elsewhere. Either the Connection Reps can agree to the deal, or the airplanes will be diverted elsewhere, to other low paid alter ego carriers ( example - Mid Atlantic ).

For the record, I do not consider Mid Atlantic an alter ego carrier. Mid Atlantic is a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** deal, but its not an alter ego. It is USAirways pilots flying on the USAirways certificate. The pay is very low, but I fail to see how this is an alter ego.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Michael :

Since Mid Atlantic does not have the money for their jets and there is talk of them being diverted to Mesa and other affliate carriers, are they now "alter ego?"

It amazes me that ALPA has made such a mess of scope and job protections that pilots who think of themselves as loyal ALPA members do not even recognize the principles our union was founded on.

~~~^~~~

 

[FDJ2]

loyal ALPA members do not even recognize the principles our union was founded on.

~~~^~~~

Would that include, never acting in any manner to circumvent, defeat or interfere with collective bargaining between the Association and an employer or with existing collective bargaining agreements. I think I saw that in the same section of the ALPA constitution and by laws that prohibits crossing a picket line.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Rumors are that this will decided one way or the other by Monday. The hand is on the switch.

 

[Tomct]

I have flown with many of the furloughed "DALPA" at my airline and they are great guys. I certainly hope that this deal does not screw us at DCI "AS USUAL" and leave us on the outside looking in. I mean, between the two companies of ASA and COMAIR, we have generated a lot of revenue to put into the big "RED" bottom line of Delta.

 

[surplus1]

Actually, I disagree with this statement. Right now, DCI is only allowed 57 70 seaters. So, right now any more 70 seaters will have to be staffed by Delta pilots. Any more 70 seater spots would not go to DCI pilots but would go to Delta pilots. So if a TA has J4Js saying that Delta guys to fly them, what has changed?

Michael,

Everything would change! Delta pilots have no legal right to enter into any agreements that would place Delta pilots on the Comair seniority list in any position other than that of a "new hire" pilot and in accordance with the terms of the Comair PWA. Who Comiar hires as a "new" pilot is a "management right". Where that pilot is placed on the seniority list is a contractual right, which neither Delta management or Comair management may change without the consent of Comair pilots.

Whatever TA the DMEC negotiates, it cannot place any Delta pilot anywhere on the seniority list of ASA or CMR, other than the bottom, without a change in the contracts of one or both of those carriers. That change cannot be made unilaterally by the Delta MEC, period. Such and agreement (TA) also cannot legally pretend to place a Delta pilot on the bottom while paying him at a higher rate or permitting him to fill a vacancy in preference to any currently employed and eligible Comair pilot. Vacancies must be filled in accordance with the Comair PWA and in accordance with seniority per the PWA.

If the Company (Delta) buys more CR7s or any other aircraft and places them at CMR or ASA, Delta pilots cannot legally fly them, except as new hire First Officers on the bottom of the list. ASA or Comair pilots would have to voluntarily give up their seniority before any Delta pilot could be placed in any position at either of those carriers that is not a new hire vacancy.

Additionally, no Delta pilot hired at ASA or Comair can be placed at the bottom of the ASA or CMR lists and paid at a higher rate, without a change in the contracts of one or both of those carriers.

Sucn change(s) to the ASA or CMR contracts cannot legally be made unilaterally by the Delta MEC or by Delta Air Lines, period. Both would require changes to the contracts and approval of the ASA or CMR pilots. In my opinion, either woud be fools to grant that approval.

Now, you can get the Company to create a new subsidiary and agree to staff it exclusively with Delta pilots regardless of the type aircraft that it operates. You can get the Company to place all new aircraft, whether RJs or any other type, on the Delta certificate and Delta pilots can then fly them all. Those are the only two things you can do without concurrence of the ASA or CMR MEC's.

I have no idea what the ASA MEC might agree to do, but I do know this. If the Comair MEC should attempt to make any agreement with the Delta MEC or with ALPA national that violates or changes the terms of the Comair pilots' contract, it will have to be ratified by Comair pilots. If that doesn't happen before the fact you can count on those representatives being tarred and feathered and removed.

I could be wrong, but it is my opinion that Comair pilots will not voluntarily relinguish any part of their contract in favor of Delta pilots. Attempts to force them to do so will result in a battle royal the likes of which ALPA has never seen.

In other words, in my opinion, the only way that your MEC or ALPA or both, or the Comair MEC, is going to place any Delta pilot ahead of any Comair pilot on any airplane operated by Comair will be with their consent, failing which, it will be over the dead bodies of Comair pilots. Perhaps you can arrange to ensure those "dead bodies" but you'll have to make it happen. Demonstrably and historically, the Comair pilot group does not surrender to outside forces.

In the past, many of you Delta pilots have told us Comair pilots that "the day will never come when any Comair pilot will be senior to any Delta pilot on the Delta Seniority List." That's OK and I have no problem with your attitude. It is your right to have that opinion. "Never" is a term that should be avoided by airline pilots. Neverthless, I'm telling you (pl) that the feelings of Comair pilots about their seniority list are little different from yours. It aint going to happen in a coons' age, so don't count on it.

If the company goes bankrupt and drags Comair with it (probable) you may lose your contract and we may lose our contract, in which case the bankruptcy judge may allow the Company to do what you are suggesting, but there is no other way.

If a J4J deal negotiated by the DMEC requires Delta pilots to fill all new hire positions at Comair in preference to other pilots, I would have no problem with that as long as it does not require any waiver of the provisions of the Comair PWA.

If a J4J deal negotiated by the DMEC that is not approved by Comair pilots, attempts to place a Delta pilot into the left seat of any aricraft on the Comair certificate and operated by Comair, ahead or in preference to eligible Comair pilots, there will be war.

If any J4J deal negotiated by the DMEC that is not approved by Comair pilots, attempts to pay a Delta pilot, flying on the CMR list, more than a Comair pilot for the same position, there will be war.

You should not expect nor anticipate that Comair Captains will abondon the contractual rights of Comair First Officers in favor of Delta pilots. That is not going to happen.

You can negotiate whatever J4J protocol you please but it cannot implemented at Comair without our consent. That "consent" can only be obtained by pilot ratification on the basis of one-man one vote. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Comair pilots expect and require their MEC to protect their interests and their contract as priority number one. If Comair pilots are ever given a reason to suspect that the Comair MEC would cede our contractual guarantees to the Delta pilots or to anyone else without our consent by ballot, especially in some back-door deal, they'll be history in a heartbeat.

My remarks are not anti-Delta pilots and are not intended to be. As I've said before, I am willing to accept Delta pilots on the Comair list, provided you come here in accordance with the provisions of the Comair PWA. What I oppose is any J4J protocol that grants super-seniority or greater compensation in preference to any pilot currently employed by Comair. I believe that the overwhelming majority of Comair pilots support that position.

I do not object to preferential hiring of Delta pilots and would even support their being hired without any interview. However, I will fight super-seniority or super-compensation by every legal means. That camel must be prevented from ever getting its nose under our tent.

There is just no way that any newly hired pilot should be paid more than any currently employed pilot. Likewise there is just no way that any Delta pilot should occupy any Captain vacancy at Comair in preference to any eligible Comair First Officer. That is wrong and it is prohibited by the Comair PWA. What your DMEC "negotiates" cannot change the Comair PWA. Not only are such ideas wrong, they are so far out of line as to be disgusting!

Our seniority is far more valuable than any number of new or additional RJs. If we have any Comair pilots that do not already understand that, we will double our efforts to explain it.

Fins,

I can't speak for ASA pilots and I have tried to carefully avoid that in what I wrote above. However, some of what you write in this thread bothers me because it hints that your MEC and your pilot group may have different views than you or I do. I am very concerned.

Why any ASA pilot would be willing to give up his seniority or his contract to some J4J deal negotiated by the Delta MEC is beyond my comprehension. I hope that I am misunderstanding what I think you are saying.

I sincerely hope that ASA pilots will stand solidly with Comair pilots in opposition to any J4J protocol that takes away their seniority or otherwise violates there contract. I trust we can count on you all in this respect.

If there was ever an issue on which ASA and CMR pilots should not be divided, this is it.

Regards.

 

[surplus1]

Would that include, never acting in any manner to circumvent, defeat or interfere with collective bargaining between the Association and an employer or with existing collective bargaining agreements. I think I saw that in the same section of the ALPA constitution and by laws that prohibits crossing a picket line.

You probably did see it there, so think about it before your MEC negotiates any protocol that violates or would require the abrogation of the Comair PWA!