Delta Strike Vote Results

[General Lee]

Actually it was a hypothetical situation since I don't work for an ALPA regional. Your response sure doesn't make me want to join a union with the likes of you though.

Short sighted huh? Here's what I think might happen. If Delta strikes, the company goes out of business.

Top management, who you guys so desperatly want to get back at, will walk away with nice compensation packages, and will aquire another management position in relatively short order, having no second thoughts about Delta.

The pilots will be out of work, probably won't be able to find work at another airline, and may even have problems landing another decently paying job anywhere, unless it's through self-employement, due to the stigma of causing the shutdown of Delta.

The rest of the Delta employees, and many employees associated with Delta will be out of work having had no say whatsoever in the matter. Some will find new work, some won't, most will probably hate the pilots.

End effect on the other pilots in the industry? Probably not much. It's possible that the demise of Delta would benifit the industry as a whole by lowering capacity, but most likely the remaining airlines will fill the void so quickly that the net change will be almost nil, and the industries pilots will be left standing right where they are now wondering why ALPA's grand plan failed.

My opinion. I already know you won't like it, because it goes against what ALPA thinks, and God forbid any pilot goes against what the mighty ALPA says.

Consider this too. ALPA gets quite a bit of money from the Delta pilot dues. Shutting down Delta ends that revenue source immediatly. Not shutting down Delta keeps it going. Even if the pilots subsequently vote ALPA out (not likely), the revenue will keep flowing until that happens.

Wow, that was wonderful. We don't need you in our union, sounds like you would pu$$ out anyway and cross a picket line.

You think top management will be able to walk into other jobs easily, eh? I doubt it. They stand to make A LOT of money if this think sticks around, and a new stock offereing comes out. Did you ever see how much UAL's Management got in new stock? 8%. Yeah, and the creditors got a lot more--and now the stock is near $40 a share. Not bad. Yeah, I think they will really want to pull the plug. Especially AMEX, with their 25 MILLION SkyMiles members. They don't care much........

And, I guess we pilots are sooooo dumb that we couldn't get a job doing anything else, right??? How dumb do you think we are? Most of us have been preparing for this possible eventuality since after 9-11. I have, and I think I will do just fine. My wife also has a good job.

You say that many other airlines will fill in for Delta. I am sorry, but you are forgetting about all of the money that has been lost recently on high gas prices. Most legacies have little or NO money to spend on major expansion plans. Some LCCs may try to fill in, but it would take awhile since most of their current planes are covering current routes. Southwest just stated they would go to IAD in the Fall, and has stated they will have over 100 flights a day from DEN by the end of the year. Would they reverse that? We don't know. Will they use RJs as feed? Doubt it. All of our domestic feed with their 50 seat RJs would be parked, while the 70s might go somewhere else. YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE GAS!!!!

And, DALPA may want to keep this going for dues, but they don't vote for the TA, we do. I won't vote for a crappy TA, and most of us won't, since we just lost 2300 very loyal Captains who left with half of their pensions. We don't have that carrot dangling over our heads like NW, so the company can't divide us. We will stop getting pay cuts, get credit for our pension default (they will save $1.6 billion over 4 years, yet they offer a $330 million note), and Scope will not allow RJs over 70 seats. Without those things, I doubt a TA will pass. I won't vote for one without those. Count on it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General - So you going to fall on your sword for 70 seat scope when the RJDC lawsuit protects CY 96 scope language? Interesting that ALPA is willing to pay a high price for something the Court may correct at a later date.

 

[General Lee]

Well, here we are at another one of those awkward and very few times when I actually agree with what you've said. I hope that if our pilot group is asked for a strike vote, we give the same 90+% yes vote. Cheers to you all for that one.:beer:

Wow, monkies are flying out of my butt! Thanks for the support.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General - So you going to fall on your sword for 70 seat scope when the RJDC lawsuit protects CY 96 scope language? Interesting that ALPA is willing to pay a high price for something the Court may correct at a later date.

You mean for the BAE146's? You can have some more of those, I guess. Nothing else though. The RJDC lawsuit will not win, and our scope clause is between us and the company. They will agree to it, over what your RJDC has to say, or we may strike and everything will stop. I would say that could be an easy answer for them. I won't vote for any TA allowing larger RJs to DCI. (unless you want very old BAE146s)......(no AVROS, only old BAE146s---good luck)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

800Dog - my contract is better than any mainline pilot (US Air, NWA, DL) has agreed to fly my airplane for. The UAL guys might make $1 an hour more on their J4J grab. Even the proposed Delta rates for aircraft larger than mine are lower than my current rates. What are you smoking?

At ASA we are still in negotiations and the message delivered to management was to shove their pay cuts. As a result our airplanes are going to SkyWest and ALPA is doing nuttin.... As a result of ALPA's refusal to allow us to negotiate scope with Delta we can do nothing.

Mainline guys are using their scope power to underbid regionals and take the flying the small jet operator has been performing - how is that saving the profession? Lets call it what it is... Mr. get a job, Bob.

Wow, very tempting but, I think I will keep my contract and pass on yours. How are your work rules and better yet, how is life in la la land? You should try stand up. Too funny!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Another brilliant post.

What will Comair pilots give if they are not recieving a paycheck because Delta is shutdown?

If Dalpa needs to strike, then I hope they do it. They shouldn't settle for more than they need to.

Had to laugh at your reply. Why? Because I knew someone would say just what you said.

The real funny part is that the Comair strike was about far less than what the DAL guys are facing now.

Until Comair and ASA strip the "Delta Airlines" logo and paint off of their planes and completly remove themselves from the delta family ala Independance Air, you will always be tied to and goverened by the mainline.

Comair did not become the size it is now because they were comair, the comair employees owe their entire existance to DAL and its brand and market power of that brand, without DAL, Comair is just another RJ operator.

I am sure I will have some nice posts flaming my thought here, but the simple fact is, until you are willing to go it alone without that logo and paint on your airplane, any complaining that you do is hypocritical at best.

Oh by the way, you are welcome for the $1245.00 that I paid to keep food on your table back in 99. That should have been enough for at least one family to eat for the month.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wow, very tempting but, I think I will keep my contract and pass on yours. How are your work rules and better yet, how is life in la la land? You should try stand up. Too funny!

Just remember that. Lets see how much of your contract you keep. The UAL, US Air and NWA guys are setting the bar awfully low.

You are already talking about Grad School in other posts. Which is it, you maintaining the profession, or accepting your fate?

 

[~~~^~~~]

We may strike and everything will stop.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Nothing I fly will stop. We will continue to operate our pre-strike schedule. Not picking up any flying, unless we do it on our own code.

 

[800Dog]

Just remember that. Lets see how much of your contract you keep. The UAL, US Air and NWA guys are setting the bar awfully low.

You are already talking about Grad School in other posts. Which is it, you maintaining the profession, or accepting your fate?

I do not work for UAL, US Air or NWA.

I am doing my best to maintain the profession but, I am but one man. Grad school starts in August if my fellow pilots do not hold the line. Thanks again for your support. It is obvious that you are a true supporter of the profession. Once again enjoy ASA. I used to work there and made a pact with myself that if I was not on to bigger and better by age 30, I would leave the profession. Enjoy.

 

[General Lee]

Nothing I fly will stop. We will continue to operate our pre-strike schedule. Not picking up any flying, unless we do it on our own code.

Riiiiiight. Man, there will be a lot of connections from Lynchburg to Baton Rouge. You will stop and liquidate too. SkyWest will file for bankruptcy, since half of their own fleet will stop flying (all 50 seaters will be parked) and then ASA will halt.

Look, no legacy has the extra money to set up a hub immediately in ATL, and that means no feed opportunites. Airtran doesn't want your feed, and they will do very well on their own. Southwest may jump in, but not need your feed, and same with Jetblue. USAir will grow in CLT, and they will use MESA to cover for all of your parked planes to the cities you used to serve in the SE. JA will panic, and offer those parked planes at bargain rates, which means major pay cuts if they can even find a feed opportunity (unlikely). Your airline will cease to exist if we stop flying. Sorry.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General: Just promise us you'll continue to hang out on the Regional Board because I'm looking forward to serving up yet another heaping helping of "I told you so."

800 Dog wont be here to join us since he will be busy in grad school working his way towards a comfy job in a cubicle with a three hour commute every day.

I strongly suggest Law School if you can get in. More benefits than the MBA, similar pay and less downside than having both a graduate degree and experience shutting down your former employer on page one of your resume.

 

[General Lee]

General: Just promise us you'll continue to hang out on the Regional Board because I'm looking forward to serving up yet another heaping helping of "I told you so."

800 Dog wont be here to join us since he will be busy in grad school working his way towards a comfy job in a cubicle with a three hour commute every day.

I strongly suggest Law School if you can get in. More benefits than the MBA, similar pay and less downside than having both a graduate degree and experience shutting down your former employer on page one of your resume.

Can you fill me in on any other "I told you so's" you have already gotten over me? Please refresh my memory...... Maybe that we would go BK? (So hard to see that one coming) Any others?

Yeah, and I can't wait to fly on ASA Airlines connecting service from Roanoke to Monroe. That will be awesome. And, with your one gate left in ATL, it will be the same plane, right? Great. Will there be any food or restaurants nearby, since all but one of two closed after we went away? Maybe a TCBY. I love their mixed ice cream cones!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

General - So you going to fall on your sword for 70 seat scope when the RJDC lawsuit protects CY 96 scope language? Interesting that ALPA is willing to pay a high price for something the Court may correct at a later date.

The RJDC is a complete failure. They can't even bring their own case to trial. WWII was won in less time then the RJDC lawsuit has been in existance. What a joke. I doubt anyone really cares what the clowns at the RJDC think or do. The RJDC is a non-factor.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

General - the 94% vote should convince Mgmt. that you guys mean business. I seriously doubt, however that JA is gonna go running for the hills. This guy is smart and has probably already thought this through. As far as delta shutting down goes- Atlanta would probably hiccup a month or so at best. Honestly man, Business travellers would probably see a sharp but temporary rise in fares while liesure travel would be interrupted for as long as it takes for someone to get some LCCs in place.

Don't get me wrong- I want to see you guys prevail but Brand name won't mean Jack S it to a traveller who wants to go to (wherever) and the no name Rj is the only thing available. He'll pay the the price- grudgingly perhaps- but he'll still travel. And I won't fly a single one of those routes while you're on strike. But some jerk will.........

 

[General Lee]

General - the 94% vote should convince Mgmt. that you guys mean business. I seriously doubt, however that JA is gonna go running for the hills. This guy is smart and has probably already thought this through. As far as delta shutting down goes- Atlanta would probably hiccup a month or so at best. Honestly man, Business travellers would probably see a sharp but temporary rise in fares while liesure travel would be interrupted for as long as it takes for someone to get some LCCs in place.

Don't get me wrong- I want to see you guys prevail but Brand name won't mean Jack S it to a traveller who wants to go to (wherever) and the no name Rj is the only thing available. He'll pay the the price- grudgingly perhaps- but he'll still travel. And I won't fly a single one of those routes while you're on strike. But some jerk will.........

There is a lot more to running an airline than just planes and gates. I am glad JA is trying to think it through, because he will have to hire reservation people, (outsource to India) and hire loads of new people at every outstation. Most of the large cities that DL now flies to (and ASA might want to take over) are DL stations, and they could be out of comission for a month or so in the process of liquidation. Those qualified people might not wait around hoping SkyWest or ASA comes in to save the day, for even lower wages. Nope, they would bail quickly. All of the ground equipment would be aquired and sold, maybe to competitors looking for bargains, not only ASA or SkyWest. That would take up more time. ASA/SkyWest would actually have to pay for higher gas bills (no more "insulation" for Ron Reber)---and that would start off operations at a loss. It is unlikely anything large would be started for months, maybe years, because the INFRASTRUCTURE is just too large for SkyWest to handle. JA is probably krapping his pants right about now, and saying "Mammy, Mammy, where are you Mammy?" out loud, with Ron Reber crying and wiping his face with $50 bills.

Thanks for the good words though. I just doubt SkyWest can fill in all of the pieces of the puzzle (reservations, ground facilities, etc) within a short amount of time to keep market share and stay competitive. Sorry.

--Bye Bye-General Lee

 

[Tomct]

GL, remember that the pilots at ASA would NOT fly any Delta struck work!! We are ALPA and would stand by the Delta Pilots!!

 

[800Dog]

General: Just promise us you'll continue to hang out on the Regional Board because I'm looking forward to serving up yet another heaping helping of "I told you so."

800 Dog wont be here to join us since he will be busy in grad school working his way towards a comfy job in a cubicle with a three hour commute every day.

I strongly suggest Law School if you can get in. More benefits than the MBA, similar pay and less downside than having both a graduate degree and experience shutting down your former employer on page one of your resume.

Why are you always so negative? Is it the misery loves company thing? I cannot think of one friend or family member with an MBA that works in a cubicle or that has a 3 hr. commute. Enjoy your lack of benefits, no retirement, low wages, weekends and holidays at work.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Can you fill me in on any other "I told you so's" you have already gotten over me? Please refresh my memory...... Maybe that we would go BK? (So hard to see that one coming) Any others?

Bye Bye--General Lee

But General, you insisted that I was being so negative and managers were simply lying about Delta's financial condition. I believe you labelled me "Chicken Little." But

1. The lies told by the Delta MEC Chairman to the 2000 ALPA BOD
2. The effect of the ALPA BOD's actions - beginning the "race to the bottom" way back in 2000! Back then we called it whipsaw and you said Delta pilots were immune.
3. C2K leading to,
4. The bankruptcy
5. Your scope revisions part 1
6. Your scope revisions part 2 (Delta did what they had to do to keep the firm orders on track)
7. The secret SLOA concerning Delta bid restricted second officers having negotiated seniority at ASA.
8. WMU program putting pilots at ASA and Comair who were interviewed and hired by DL
9. Delta's "gay pride" program
10. Delta's "random fuel cancellation" program causing a near revolt amongst business travellers
11. Jets for Jobs at other carriers with sub regional pay scales
12. ALPA's scope policy failures and the actual economic limitations of the RJ
13. The RJDC's effect of preventing Jets for Jobs at Delta (unable to print due to ongoing litigation, but I'm sure you will be surprised, your MEC is not talking about it)

I might have forgotten a few....

and 800 Dog, some folks like working in an office. But nothing beats flying. I'm not negative, what you do now is a good job, a whole lot better job than any office job (and I left one of the best to fly an E120 and can say it was an excellent decision)

Flying can be challenging and you have already studied harder for a type ride than you will for your Board Exams, or Certification tests. Flying should get paid more than office work, but, flying is a whole lot more fun. In my case, I see a whole lot more of my family flying for a living than working 7am to 10pm climbing the corporate ladder and trying to get ahead of the competition.

I'm saying the Delta pilots are better off with Delta. And while it is correct to fight the tossing of your contract, you would be best served if your MEC made some very pragmatic decisions before the ship slips beneath the waves. You are correct that $85K a year jobs are out there - but the truth is those jobs come after you have been on the job for a couple of years learning your industry and the $85K a year jobs working 40 hours a week are non-existent outside of government service. I make well into six figures, but I also work nearly 100 hours a week some times (and take little breaks to argue with General on Flight Info)

 

[General Lee]

But General, you insisted that I was being so negative and managers were simply lying about Delta's financial condition. I believe you labelled me "Chicken Little." But

1. The lies told by the Delta MEC Chairman to the 2000 ALPA BOD
2. The effect of the ALPA BOD's actions - beginning the "race to the bottom" way back in 2000! Back then we called it whipsaw and you said Delta pilots were immune.
3. C2K leading to,
4. The bankruptcy
5. Your scope revisions part 1
6. Your scope revisions part 2 (Delta did what they had to do to keep the firm orders on track)
7. The secret SLOA concerning Delta bid restricted second officers having negotiated seniority at ASA.
8. WMU program putting pilots at ASA and Comair who were interviewed and hired by DL
9. Delta's "gay pride" program
10. Delta's "random fuel cancellation" program causing a near revolt amongst business travellers
11. Jets for Jobs at other carriers with sub regional pay scales
12. ALPA's scope policy failures and the actual economic limitations of the RJ
13. The RJDC's effect of preventing Jets for Jobs at Delta (unable to print due to ongoing litigation, but I'm sure you will be surprised, your MEC is not talking about it)

I might have forgotten a few....

and 800 Dog, some folks like working in an office. But nothing beats flying. I'm not negative, what you do now is a good job, a whole lot better job than any office job (and I left one of the best to fly an E120 and can say it was an excellent decision)

Flying can be challenging and you have already studied harder for a type ride than you will for your Board Exams, or Certification tests. Flying should get paid more than office work, but, flying is a whole lot more fun. In my case, I see a whole lot more of my family flying for a living than working 7am to 10pm climbing the corporate ladder and trying to get ahead of the competition.

I'm saying the Delta pilots are better off with Delta. And while it is correct to fight the tossing of your contract, you would be best served if your MEC made some very pragmatic decisions before the ship slips beneath the waves. You are correct that $85K a year jobs are out there - but the truth is those jobs come after you have been on the job for a couple of years learning your industry and the $85K a year jobs working 40 hours a week are non-existent outside of government service. I make well into six figures, but I also work nearly 100 hours a week some times (and take little breaks to argue with General on Flight Info)

Wow. I like the one that states our C2K contract lead to our BK. Wow, you must be gulping management koolaid. I guess the $2 billion stock buy back prior to 9-11 might not have helped? How about the pi$$ poor strategy our mangement had thinking USAir would just "go away?" Oh, you forgot that one. The "lies" told by our MEC chairman.....riiiiight. You might think so. What about all of the RJDC lies and "We will help your furloughs if you give us more 70 seaters..." right after we gave money for their strike.....

Most of what you stated is the result of you smoking some weed. You may view some of that stuff that way, but others do not share your views. The RJDC suit is going nowhere fast, and you know it. And, as far as possibly losing our jobs, that is the way it goes. I can and will do something else, and get better work. Most of us have prepared ourselves for this type of eventuality.

And, DL managers are still going overboard about our financial situation. One of our top managers, Jim Whitehurst, just recently told a large group of our NON union folks that in 2007 we will be "wildly profitable", yet our own CFO stated to the arbitrators that we are "extremely fragile." Which is it? I guess you know.......riiiiiight. Your flying job will cease also if mine does. You can't get around that, and JA does NOT have a viable backup plan for ASA if we go away. Nope. Sounds like you are drinking every management's koolaid.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ironspud]

Smoking weed and drinking koolaid? Wow. Anything else?

 

[wmuflyguy]

Had to laugh at your reply. Why? Because I knew someone would say just what you said.

The real funny part is that the Comair strike was about far less than what the DAL guys are facing now.

Until Comair and ASA strip the "Delta Airlines" logo and paint off of their planes and completly remove themselves from the delta family ala Independance Air, you will always be tied to and goverened by the mainline.

Comair did not become the size it is now because they were comair, the comair employees owe their entire existance to DAL and its brand and market power of that brand, without DAL, Comair is just another RJ operator.

I am sure I will have some nice posts flaming my thought here, but the simple fact is, until you are willing to go it alone without that logo and paint on your airplane, any complaining that you do is hypocritical at best.

Oh by the way, you are welcome for the $1245.00 that I paid to keep food on your table back in 99. That should have been enough for at least one family to eat for the month.

I think you miscomprehended the post.

I'm well aware we are a product of the big DL. Going it alone would never work, we all know it.

My question was if DL pilots struck and ASA and CMR layoff all the pilots, would an ASA/CMR pilot be expected to contribute cash if they are not even employed?

I wasn't complaining and wasn't even here for the strike, which by the way wasn't in '99 it was in 2001.

 

[General Lee]

I think you miscomprehended the post.

I'm well aware we are a product of the big DL. Going it alone would never work, we all know it.

My question was if DL pilots struck and ASA and CMR layoff all the pilots, would an ASA/CMR pilot be expected to contribute cash if they are not even employed?

I wasn't complaining and wasn't even here for the strike, which by the way wasn't in '99 it was in 2001.

I doubt it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Soverytired]

Sir, General Sir!

What's the skinny? You think your management and DALPA MEC are going to come to an agreement before the April 15 abitration ruling deadline?

On a scale of 1 to 10 (1=NEVER, 10=OF course we are . . .DUH!), what do you think?

 

[General Lee]

What's the skinny? You think your management and DALPA MEC are going to come to an agreement before the April 15 abitration ruling deadline?

On a scale of 1 to 10 (1=NEVER, 10=OF course we are . . .DUH!), what do you think?

8..........?

 

[wmuflyguy]

Has there been much negotiating lately?

 

[ohplease!]

I still think you are a pain in the a**!!

yeah but, I'm a lovable pain in the a**.

 

[737 Pylt]

The propoganda man returneth

deleted

 

[wmuflyguy]

8. WMU program putting pilots at ASA and Comair who were interviewed and hired by DL

When was this program?

I know people who got scholarships through DL at WMU and then got interview at ASA and Comair(some did not get the job). None were hired by DL and then placed at other airlines.

 

[say again]

Completely off the subject, but GL-great pic, but hate how it scrunches all your posts to the right!!!!:beer:


Good luck to you guys, I've been out of the loop since being furloughed last year, but I do miss 121 flying, just not the crap that you guys are still going through (you guys, meaning all 121 pilots)!!!

 

[737 Pylt]

The propoganda man returneth

But General, you insisted that I was being so negative and managers were simply lying about Delta's financial condition. I believe you labelled me "Chicken Little." But

1. The lies told by the Delta MEC Chairman to the 2000 ALPA BOD
2. The effect of the ALPA BOD's actions - beginning the "race to the bottom" way back in 2000! Back then we called it whipsaw and you said Delta pilots were immune.
3. C2K leading to,
4. The bankruptcy
5. Your scope revisions part 1
6. Your scope revisions part 2 (Delta did what they had to do to keep the firm orders on track)
7. The secret SLOA concerning Delta bid restricted second officers having negotiated seniority at ASA.
8. WMU program putting pilots at ASA and Comair who were interviewed and hired by DL
9. Delta's "gay pride" program
10. Delta's "random fuel cancellation" program causing a near revolt amongst business travellers
11. Jets for Jobs at other carriers with sub regional pay scales
12. ALPA's scope policy failures and the actual economic limitations of the RJ
13. The RJDC's effect of preventing Jets for Jobs at Delta (unable to print due to ongoing litigation, but I'm sure you will be surprised, your MEC is not talking about it)

I might have forgotten a few....

1. Lies....Coming from the master, that's funny. What lies??
2. Sounds like your gripe is with ALPA national, not the DL MEC
3. C2K was fair at the time
4. See #3 (DL management drove this company into BK with their serps and bonuses)
5. ALL flying done under the DL code is subject to the DL pilots' PWA
6. See #5
7. LMAO! Is this the same secret meeting that took place to rid you of your flying priveleges altogether!?!
8. You really get creative making this stuff up!
9. No argument there....That's DL management at its finest
10. Again, no argument there, that's DL management at its finest
11. See ALPA national, not the DL MEC
12. The rj is an expensive airplane to run. High casm. Don't believe it, ask any FLY I pilot! It has its place, but management has abused our "predatory scope" by allowing too many of those thus driving away the business traveler in droves!
13. YGTBSM! Where in the world do you come up with this stuff!

I'm sure you'll make up some more.........

Dude:
You really need to chill down with your hatred of the DL MEC.....Its clouding your judgement, and it scares me to think that a person with that much hatred is actually piloting an aircraft. Get back on your meds, go see a movie and relax. The DL MEC/pilot group is not out to ruin your career. And the only thing the rjdc has done is wasted a lot of my union dues money in useless litigation, and given its founder DF a name in the history books of the likes of a scab of which the industry has ever known. Way to go! But you keep up with the industry updates and lies and propogandas. After all, how else are you morons going to get your supporters to keep donating money!
737