Delta ship 638 Paint job

[Vikedog64]

That is what life is like for the working class. Youre opinion doesn't matter to anyone who matters, ie, management. You can bitch and moan all day, but at the end of the day you are just another worker. Remember capitalism is great.

Thanks Spiderman...

 

[astroglider]

Vikedog = airline pilot hater

Vikedog64,

Yo Vikedog chilll for a second... you said, "Do not spew all this crap about how the pilots took the brunt."

Reread my post...I never said that...I don't believe it either. You're reading between the lines through obvious mainline-pilot-hater glasses. Just step back a second and take a deep breath. Then reread the post. I wrote about all the DAL employees not just the pilots.

I do completely agree with you though the Delta bk was at LEAST 15 years in the making. I predict Delta will be back in bk within two years due to some sort of international event disrupting our international expansion.

Airline Industry Factoid:

U.S. domestic airline market = cyclical industry

International airline market = violently cyclical industry destroying all but the airlines either partially or fully owned by their respective governments.

So where do you think Delta is heading?

Astroglider

 

[Mooneymite]

You my be angry, but did you ever think that Daltas BK was at least 15 years old. DAL never knew how to compete..everytime SWA entered a market, we retreated but yet we awarded our employees record contracts(at least the pilots!) Do not spew all this crap about how the pilots took the brunt. With the cash payouts the pilots had, is it any wonder why the remaining were left with the bag? ALPA negotiated this contract and has to live with it. At least General Lee recognizes it...

Untrue.

You don't have a clue what went on at Delta.

Prior to the Western Merger, where Grinstein got his claws into Delta, Delta could compete effectively in any chosen market because its costs were low. The secret to its low costs were a non-union work force and ownership of its fleet. Delta bought its equipment outright. No banks, no leasing companies.

When Grinstein worked himself onto the BOD, he got rid of the Woolman era board members who were all getting old. He stuffed the board with people whose business "ethics" matched his.

Grinstein brought 13 737-300's over from Western that had the most unfavorable leases ever seen in the industry. Delta couldn't fly the airplanes 25 hours a day and make a profit. Guess who profitted from those leases?

Then since those leases lost so much money. guess what the "enlightened board did? They sold off most of Delta's owned aircraft to leasing companies and leased back at higher than market rates. This little fact came out in the bankruptcy proceedings. What Grinstein did was take all the profits out through the equipment leases and never let any money hit the bottom line where he would have to share with the employees or stockholders.

Leo was brought on board specifically because of his connections with GE Capital and Michelle and her girlfriend were brought onboard to protect the leasors "should" a bankruptcy occur.

Yes, Grinstein is a real hero....

Check out his friends. A real swell bunch.

 

[Vikedog64]

Untrue.

You don't have a clue what went on at Delta.

Prior to the Western Merger, where Grinstein got his claws into Delta, Delta could compete effectively in any chosen market because its costs were low. The secret to its low costs were a non-union work force and ownership of its fleet. Delta bought its equipment outright. No banks, no leasing companies.

When Grinstein worked himself onto the BOD, he got rid of the Woolman era board members who were all getting old. He stuffed the board with people whose business "ethics" matched his.

Grinstein brought 13 737-300's over from Western that had the most unfavorable leases ever seen in the industry. Delta couldn't fly the airplanes 25 hours a day and make a profit. Guess who profitted from those leases?

Then since those leases lost so much money. guess what the "enlightened board did? They sold off most of Delta's owned aircraft to leasing companies and leased back at higher than market rates. This little fact came out in the bankruptcy proceedings. What Grinstein did was take all the profits out through the equipment leases and never let any money hit the bottom line where he would have to share with the employees or stockholders.

Leo was brought on board specifically because of his connections with GE Capital and Michelle and her girlfriend were brought onboard to protect the leasors "should" a bankruptcy occur.

Yes, Grinstein is a real hero....

Check out his friends. A real swell bunch.

I was with Western in 1985- 87. When Delta bought us, we all felt like we had walked into a time warp. No computers in either the F/A lounges or pilots. Everything was done by paper. However, most of us were glad to be with DAL. Yes, the costs were low but DAL in the 80's and 90's were a large regional carrier. Then we bought Pan Am. Paid way too much and almost went into BK over that but luckily EAL went out of business. Another 7 years with no competition in ATL. Sigh of relief. Then came Valujet.. What do we do? Sell our DC-9's to them. OH OH now what do we do????? Therin lies the story. We didn't know what to do. I had a talk with Glen Hauenstein, one of the executives we attained from CAL and when he looked at our fleet and how it was utilized, he laughed and couldn't believe we hadn't filed sooner. When he went into his first meeting with DAL execs, they were dumbfounded . He said they were still thinking that it was the DAL of the past. I've said it before that this company made money in spite of themselves over the years. And you are right about the a/c leases. Paid way too much but what were the lease rates then? And all during this, the pilots were pissed at Ron Allen(rightly so) and were determined to garner a industry leading contract, even though the writing was on the wall and DAL could not afford it, and ALPA probably knew it. But hey, its all about dues and keeping the rank and file happy right? I know a little more than you think. We are da.n lucky we are still here...

 

[Vikedog64]

Vikedog64,

Yo Vikedog chilll for a second... you said, "Do not spew all this crap about how the pilots took the brunt."

Reread my post...I never said that...I don't believe it either. You're reading between the lines through obvious mainline-pilot-hater glasses. Just step back a second and take a deep breath. Then reread the post. I wrote about all the DAL employees not just the pilots.

I do completely agree with you though the Delta bk was at LEAST 15 years in the making. I predict Delta will be back in bk within two years due to some sort of international event disrupting our international expansion.

Airline Industry Factoid:

U.S. domestic airline market = cyclical industry

International airline market = violently cyclical industry destroying all but the airlines either partially or fully owned by their respective governments.

So where do you think Delta is heading?

Astroglider

Astro, I have no idea what will happen in the future. You are right about how cyclical this industry is. I am not a pilot hater..I have flown with them over 22 years and only a few I didnt care for. I believe that DAL is doing what it has to do to survive. But I do agree with you that something will happen in th future to disrupt Intl. traffic. But will it be long term? The world is pretty resiliant.

 

[Mooneymite]

I was with Western in 1985- 87. ........................... And all during this, the pilots were pissed at Ron Allen(rightly so) and were determined to garner a industry leading contract, even though the writing was on the wall and DAL could not afford it, and ALPA probably knew it. But hey, its all about dues and keeping the rank and file happy right? I know a little more than you think. We are da.n lucky we are still here...

From my perspective, the Western merger was the end of the good old days of Delta. The clash of cultures was extreme. The Delta I hired onto never had a good day after Western.

Cultures aside, I believe Grinchstein only used Western as a "Trojan Horse" to get onto Delta's BOD. He could not mount a frontal assalt on Delta due to the poison pill provisions, so he dressed Western up to look good for a merger and used that as a springboard into Delta's inner sanctum. You will remember that Delta was flush with cash prior to buying Western. Had over a billion dollars in cash back when a billion dollars was worth something.

The pilots' anger at Ron Allen was misplaced. Ron was chosen over Hollis Harris because he had neither brains, nor the old Delta business ethics. Grinchstein knew Ron wouldn't have a clue why the equipment should not be sold to leasing companies and leased back. Ron was put in power by Grinchstein and did exactly as he was told. Ron was not a bad guy...just inept and in way over his simple head.

Incidentally, did you ever ask where the money raised from selling all the equipment went?

Make no mistake. Grinchstein came to Delta specifically to plunder it. You and I and every other employee, stock holder and stake holder is a victim of his actions.

The real crime in all of this is that our laws permit this type of activity. What Grinchstein did was unethical as hell, but legal.

If you want to pursue the money trail further, see who Grinstiein's buddies in Texas are.

Very interesting.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Mooney Mite:

You have an interesting perspective. How much of this do you place at the feet of Mullins and the rest of the Harvard group?

I remember attending a meeting where Fred Reid stood and delivered a speech that "costs don't matter," "we are in a new cost paradigm and just like we exceeded United, American will exceed us and Continental will exceed them." It also did not matter what Delta's costs were because the common knowledge was that US Air and United were all but gone. "The strength of the Delta balance sheet means we can borrow and stay in the game long after all of our competition is gone."

Delta management (at the time Harvard graduates with NO airline experience) thought they had a new model and profligate spending was part of that model. I could not figure out if this speech was to justify what Mullins and crew thought their paycheck should be, or if senior management had bought into ALPA's version of pattern bargaining.

You are right that this was a culture shift. My father's generation understood that Delta's pilots made a little less than Eastern and Pan Am pilots, but they felt job security was a fair exchange for 10% lower pay rates.

In running my own small business we have times when we are awash with cash and it is easy to spend, spend, spend. Now we have learned that there will be very lean times when you are scared half to death that you wont make payroll & taxes. The secret is running your business like you are always scared half to death because it is at those times when you push the envelope for revenue and make very smart, conservative, decisions with cash. I was surprised to hear Jerry Atkin make the exact same statement to a group of Graduate students about running his business, the Word's largest regional airline and perhaps by airplanes, one of the largest airlines in the World. Herb Kelleher was also a "paraniod" manager as Bill Gates has been.

Where do you think Delta is now? Profligate, or paranoid?

 

[Mooneymite]

Mooney Mite:

You have an interesting perspective. How much of this do you place at the feet of Mullins and the rest of the Harvard group?
...........(snip).......
Where do you think Delta is now? Profligate, or paranoid?

Mullins and Allen did what they were told to do. They acted out of loyalty to those who paid them, not out of a sense of what was right or wrong.

I have low expectations for Delta in the future. My reasons may be a little unconventional, but my premise has proven valid in the past.

In 1978, when I was shopping for an airline to work for, I looked for what I considered "ethical management". I only applied to a few airlines, but Delta was my top choice. Even though Delta had a few rascals in its ranks, the corporate culture was "ethical", or if you will excuse an extremely un-PC term, "Christian".

Today, that ethical culture is gone. Everyone from the chief pilots to the CEO seem to be lacking in the area of ethics. They all seem to be willing to do "whatever is necessary", rather than whatever is right.

Good business people do well over the long haul, it's simply good business. C. E. Woolman was a "good" businessman" and I think, today, we can look at Herb Kellerher in the same way. He may drink and smoke, but he doesn't lie and cheat. I hope SWA never gets turned over to the Harvard Business school of ethics crowd, or they will get their version of Grinchstein who will plunder the company.

Isn't it significant how many great companies have been brought down by people who were trained as lawyers?

I think that Delta management has sown where it did not reap. I don't expect Delta to prosper under the present regime or with the present corporate culture.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

This thread made me think of this article.

 

[Mooneymite]

Iraq’s Curse: A Thirst for Final, Crushing Victory

This thread made me think of this article.

Okay....I understand who is getting crushed.

Are you betting on which faction will emerge victorious?