Delta RFP - will Delta pay for the gas?

[FDJ2]

No, and I dont have to.

Yeah, just what I thought. Isn't it past your bed time?

 

[Hobit]

Why all the anger?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Thanks professor! ASA/Skywest will get their's in due time during the next round of negotiations. The entire regional business is screwed in the long term - quit acting like a jacka$$...

OK, thanks for the motivational speech too. By the time our next contract at ASA is due, who knows where the industry will be. Clearly your tiny mind cannot produce one insightful thought without spewing obscenities. Scary to think you may be an airline pilot.

 

[michael707767]

And your point is? Didn't the quote start with the premise that the TA hadn't even been seen by the MEC yet, let alone the rank and file?

For the record, I voted no, but I don't begrudge anyone who voted yes. It's our PWA, we'll live with it. It's not the best, but it's far from the worst.

I agree with FDJ2. I voted no and I think it was the correct vote. But, I admit, absent the scope, the rest of the TA was darn good for a pilot group in bankruptcy. So, I also don't begrudge any rank and file pilots their yes vote.

However, I am upset with the union. They promised not to bring us a TA with 70+ seats. Lee Moak told me to my face he would not agree to a TA unless Delta pilots did all the flying above 70 seats. Lee Moak is a lying sack of s**t.

 

[N2264J]

...They know they can get feed for cheaper, and they are really taking it to everyone involved...In the meantime, Comair may be in a world of hurt very soon.

And every dollar that goes to another shareholder group like Skywest, Chautauqua, Mesa or anyone else when the RFP is awarded, is a dollar unavailable to the Delta pilots to negotiate into their contract.

Welcome to the party.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

And every dollar that goes to another shareholder group like Skywest, Chautauqua, Mesa or anyone else when the RFP is awarded, is a dollar unavailable to the Delta pilots to negotiate into their contract.

Not really. You could argue that every dollar that goes to them would have been 2 dollars going to comair, ASA, or anybody else that was more expensive. Thus, effectively, saving a dollar for the Delta pilots to negotiate over. Logic, it's a funny thing.

glad to be gone

 

[OldManPilot]

I have been quite busy lately, but thanks for recognizing my absence. I feel the love.....

Putz? Come on. I speak the truth. You and your regional pals have been telling us here how profitable and needed ASA and the others have been for Delta. But, in reality, we are the ones hurting thanks to your contracts with us. Paying for the fuel difference is ridiculous. SkyWest loves to report HUGE profits, yet if higher fuel prices were actually included on your side, those profits would vanish. Poof. Gone. Have you forgotten good old Ron Reber's statement about having Delta pay the difference and how good that was for SkyWest? So, tell me again how we buy in bulk and how that is good for us, even though Ron Reber admits it really is better for SkyWest? Maybe you should explain this all to Ron Reber.....

When I talked about Lawson, I was just remembering how he was sooo greedy asking for extra 70 seaters when our furloughed pilots were out of luck. A lot of us will never forget that, and I wasn't even furloughed. Ford may have to foreclose on his own house shortly, unless he sues someone else for some bogus reason too.

This really will get interesting, and I can't wait to see what happens next. And, my exile is only temporary. I will have a lot more time shortly to be on here more often. Thanks for caring.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Oh my god...

Do you even listen to yourself?

Stop trying to blame Delta's problems on the regionals. Your a real sorry example of a pilot. And you actually think people agree with you... ha ha ha

The reason you and your Delta Pilot buddies are crying is because you caved just like everyone else. You in your infinate wisdom didn't see the simple facts. Major Airlines used the post 9/11 scare to get EXACTLY what they wanted, major concessions. Bankruptcy was a small price to pay for years of profitability to come.

If your sick and tired of anything, it should be yourself... You talk big, but your just a pinhead weenie like the rest of your Delta brethren.

I have no sympathy for your "Major" airline woes, you made your bed, now hope you can sleep in it!

 

[N2264J]

Not really. You could argue that every dollar that goes to them would have been 2 dollars going to comair, ASA, or anybody else that was more expensive. Thus, effectively, saving a dollar for the Delta pilots to negotiate over.

You could argue that but you'd be wrong. The cost to put a butt in the seat is going to include multiple management teams, multiple training departments, multiple company infrastructures, etc. The cost of the pilot resource is only a small part of the overall hidden expenses and what may be saved there is eaten up elsewhere.

Dollars are leaving the property and that's not good for Delta shareholders, Comair pilots, or Delta pilots.

 

[~~~^~~~]

N2264J - Why are you having such a hard time understanding outsourcing? Rather than manage effectively, Delta and its legions of highly paid consultants, have decided it is less expensive to outsource everything they can. Ground Service, Maintenance and Flying. Heck, Leo Mullins was all about the Delta brand simply being a holding company.

Part of the justification for selling ASA to SkyWest was that SkyWest could manage ASA better than Delta could. (So far that has not been the case from an operational standpoint, but at least most of the fat is gone from the G.O.)

SkyWest, Republic and the others are simply aircraft leasing companies which also provide crews and dispatch. If the parent company benefits from the arrangement it is a benefit to shareholders.

In my opinion outsourcing is a failure of management. In my business I "in source" as much as possible so I can maintain better control of our product. In some cases I do pay more, but the service and reliability are better.

In the airline business, look at Alaska and Horizon. They have been profitable and they outsource very little.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If Delta buys RJ lift at $2,400 an hour with $360 passed through for fuel, or pays a flat $2,800 an hour, what is the difference? Delta is still buying the service.

I think General is hoping that Regionals will go into the business at a loss. Better yet that these losses could force concessions. It would be Delta's luck that they will sign contracts and a week later fuel will go from $80 a barrell to $50 and stay there.

Short of Iran nuking a neighbor, the pressure on oil prices is downwards for the short term.

Fortunately even Delta's managers are smarter (or better informed) than we are and they will probably stick with the fuel pass throughs since Delta has the ability to change ticket prices and schedules for the brand - adjusting for market conditions when they choose.

 

[N2264J]

I think General is hoping that Regionals will go into the business at a loss. Better yet that these losses could force concessions...

...at the regionals so it won't have to come out of their mainline contract. Interesting conundrum:

a) outsourcing flying to a cheaper pilot group is good for Delta pilots because money saved is available to the DMEC to negotiate for

or

b) outsourcing flying to a cheaper pilot group is bad for Delta pilots so we have to restrict their flying by scoping them to stop the outsourcing.

Conflicted or merely schizophrenic? Either way, it's DFR fodder.

 

[michael707767]

I think General is hoping that Regionals will go into the business at a loss. Better yet that these losses could force concessions. It would be Delta's luck that they will sign contracts and a week later fuel will go from $80 a barrell to $50 and stay there..

Actually, I think GL raises a valid point, no matter what the price of fuel is. I understand the dynamics of the contracts with our regionals, but when Delta is footing the bill, where is the incentive for the regional to save gas? For example, I notice pretty much every time I am in line behind an RJ in ATL, they have both engines running, even if we are number 15 or so in line. Surely an RJ can taxi on one engine.

When another party is paying for your fuel, I think it's easy to not have fuel savings be one of your priorities. There should be some way to address this in the contracts with our regional providers.

 

[wms]

Actually, I think GL raises a valid point, no matter what the price of fuel is. I understand the dynamics of the contracts with our regionals, but when Delta is footing the bill, where is the incentive for the regional to save gas? For example, I notice pretty much every time I am in line behind an RJ in ATL, they have both engines running, even if we are number 15 or so in line. Surely an RJ can taxi on one engine.

When another party is paying for your fuel, I think it's easy to not have fuel savings be one of your priorities. There should be some way to address this in the contracts with our regional providers.

Not true. most guys I know here are practical and single-engine taxi. The ones that don't are the ones who are disgruntled about the contract. My view is since DAL covers most of our fuel it doesn't hurt ASA mgmt to burn more, so why hurt DAL. They do enough damage to themselves through their own poor management.

PS: If DALPA is so burned up about the relaxing of scope then stop caving. You guys have brought this one yourself by giving in over and over. We all agree DAL would be better with fewer RJs ( and I fly one) and I'll even go as far as to say ML should be flying the E170/190. But either arrogance or lack of spine or both has led to too much out-sourcing and whip-sawing.

 

[michael707767]

Not true. most guys I know here are practical and single-engine taxi. The ones that don't are the ones who are disgruntled about the contract. My view is since DAL covers most of our fuel it doesn't hurt ASA mgmt to burn more, so why hurt DAL.

PS: If DALPA is so burned up about the relaxing of scope then stop caving. You guys have brought this one yourself by giving in over and over. .

whether or not the guys at the regionals conserve is not my point. I do think it would be appropriate to have in the contract some way to ensure that there is an economic incentive for the regional to save fuel.

On your PS, I agree with you. Our pilots, as a group, have brought this on themselves.

 

[N2264J]

If DALPA is so burned up about the relaxing of scope then stop caving.

They're not caving according to ALPA officials. They've testified under oath that the DMEC is only matching the company fleet plan therefore no harm done to Comair pilots. I doubt if the DMEC is telling the mainline rank-and-file that.

Then why set any restrictions at all if they're only matching the company fleet plan?

 

[rtmcfi]

whether or not the guys at the regionals conserve is not my point. I do think it would be appropriate to have in the contract some way to ensure that there is an economic incentive for the regional to save fuel.

On your PS, I agree with you. Our pilots, as a group, have brought this on themselves.

I think you are seeing the economic incentive in the awarding of contracts. All other things being equal, if regional A burns 20% more gas than regional B, regional A gets the contract. I am certain Delta looks at the fuel burns of its regional partners. While there is no immediate incentive to conserve fuel after the contract is signed, the desire to expand present contracts, and win more contracts with other carriers kinda makes the regionals want to conserve fuel, and look cheaper than there competitors.

 

[Tomct]

I would be happy to conserve fuel IF my company treated me with respect and got our contract DONE! HOWEVER, since they seem to like dragging their feet (4 yrs next month) I have NO intention of saving any fuel. It is frustrating to see how they just sit there and do NOTHING! I know, Delta is buying our fuel, but maybe when they see the bottom line of fuel burns, they will ask our IDIOT MGMNT WHY! Then IDIOT BL can say "...well, the pilots are a little upset about the duration of these ongoing negotiations..."

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Interesting..is this the thought process at ASA? I ask b/c we got a lot of memos.... bulletins saying to try to conserve fuel on the 170 for Delta. Now we are burning LESS than what Embraer published the 170 to burn an hour (what I was told, I didnt hear it from the horse's mouth). And we are getting a lot of praise for that.

I am glad that you think wasting fuel is good, especially since its expensive and also because having that extra gas inflight might be wise.....ya think?

but thats ok Keep that high fuel burn on the crj700 b/c they are comparing it to the 170 fuel burn and we are winning that battle.

My post is not to insult yall at ASA, have many friends there and respect them all. I just dont understand how tomct thinks turning 2 engines while #15 in line is wise.

 

[TAWS]

This thread is a joke.........why???

Because the outcome of this RFP has already been decided - don't even think it's real. RAH has more flying out of ATL next month than EVER before. SLC is going away for us, but those trips were never an efficient use of the 170. Skywest will control SLC, Comair will be carved up and the scraps thrown to RAH and/or someone else.
Bitch all you want, but Shuttle is staying, we won't pay for gas because that is retarded, DAL MEC has ZERO say in the matter because mngt knows they can screw you guys hard and you won't strike - so shut up and quit your crying!!!
By the way, we are Teamsters (not the best in the world), so your MEC can forget about back door deals.

Have a nice life bitching about RAH!!

FACT: We don't control mngt, THEY decide who we fly for and for how much!
FACT: It's NOT your flying, it's DAL's flying - THEY decide!!!!!!