Delta RFP for Comair Flying.

[av8er2]

How much did this announcement stress you out as a pilot at Comair?

I would think that if you were not sure if you had a job in the near future it would be hard to not think about this all the time and not be stressed.

 

[crusader 22]

There is no doubt in my mind that the stress related to this RFP and all the other whipsaw crap, played a part in this mishap.

 

[ohplease!]

How much did this announcement stress you out as a pilot at Comair?

I would think that if you were not sure if you had a job in the near future it would be hard to not think about this all the time and not be stressed.

stupid statement/question....we're all under that same pressure. There are stories/rports daily about this airline or that airline gaining/losing flying, planes, pay yada, yada. Distracted thoughts are only one link in the "chain" of events that led to this accident. Please stop looking for a place to place the blame for this. Delta isn't the evil giant that caused this. Neither is the controller. They goofed just as any of us could have, have and will again. Use this for what its good for; a wakeup call for us to be that much more vigilant.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Oh Please - it seems like a good question to me. We all know that the pilots should not have made a mistake and we are not seeking to mitigate that responsibility (if everyone has thus far made correct assumptions about the loss).

What we are trying to understand is the human factors side of this mistake. I confess that I have broken sterile cockpit, most often when we taxi by the Delta Tech Ops building on the way to 26L. The topic of conversation is almost always Delta's future and by extension, our future.

My friends who are Comair pilots were very concerned about this RFP and both Comair and Delta Management were hyping it up all they could - hoping to push things to a breaking point where labor would become flexible with their Consultant's demands. Could be that the real breaking point wasn't even considered by the Harvard grad's case study.

Now we know Delta's opinion on av8er2's question - they have pulled all mention of the RFP off every web site they control - a complete news black out like it never existed. If they mention the RFP, it is downplayed and reportably delayed indefinately.

Airline management can not turn off the stress machine, but lately NorthWest and Delta have been deliberately inducing stress into workers in an effort to force labor into concessions. It is a poor way to manage employees and would get a manager fired at most businesses. Good management seeks to make their employees jobs easier, encouraging them to reach goals for future reward and serving as a peace maker.

I fully expect additional emphasis on sterile cockpit and probably a couple extra checklist items as a result of this accident. Already, I think 99% of pilots have made some adjustments to the way they operate on the ground. By understanding all the reasons this accident occurred we can better prevent an occurrence in the future.

If the sermon doesn't apply to you, ignore it. But there are some of us, me included, who are concerned about the direction this industry is headed and feel that constant, escalating, threats are a distraction which could be better managed.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Well said!!

 

[bvt1151]

It didn't cause it, but it most certainly contributed to it.

When things like this happen, it does provide some degree of distraction. Combine that with everything else that contributed to this accident...

 

[imacdog]

Oh Please - it seems like a good question to me. We all know that the pilots should not have made a mistake and we are not seeking to mitigate that responsibility (if everyone has thus far made correct assumptions about the loss).

What we are trying to understand is the human factors side of this mistake. I confess that I have broken sterile cockpit, most often when we taxi by the Delta Tech Ops building on the way to 26L. The topic of conversation is almost always Delta's future and by extension, our future.

My friends who are Comair pilots were very concerned about this RFP and both Comair and Delta Management were hyping it up all they could - hoping to push things to a breaking point where labor would become flexible with their Consultant's demands. Could be that the real breaking point wasn't even considered by the Harvard grad's case study.

Now we know Delta's opinion on av8er2's question - they have pulled all mention of the RFP off every web site they control - a complete news black out like it never existed. If they mention the RFP, it is downplayed and reportably delayed indefinately.

Airline management can not turn off the stress machine, but lately NorthWest and Delta have been deliberately inducing stress into workers in an effort to force labor into concessions. It is a poor way to manage employees and would get a manager fired at most businesses. Good management seeks to make their employees jobs easier, encouraging them to reach goals for future reward and serving as a peace maker.

I fully expect additional emphasis on sterile cockpit and probably a couple extra checklist items as a result of this accident. Already, I think 99% of pilots have made some adjustments to the way they operate on the ground. By understanding all the reasons this accident occurred we can better prevent an occurrence in the future.

If the sermon doesn't apply to you, ignore it. But there are some of us, me included, who are concerned about the direction this industry is headed and feel that constant, escalating, threats are a distraction which could be better managed.

I agree 100%. Not saying that pilot error did not play the major role in the accident, or even trying to shift or divert blame, but my stress levels have been extremely high since the RFP was announced. I still do the very best I can when at work, but I am certainly not getting the rest I used to at night. I can imagine how much more stress those with families to support are feeling.

 

[Crash Pad]

I am now convinced that tomorrow I could walk up to a 50 seater (which I haven't flown in over a year)... Fire it up single pilot... Go to takeoff power and drive right into the terminal... Huge explosion and kill a bunch of people. This message board. God bless you all. Would defend me to the death. Talking about fatigue, low pay, stress at home, short overnights, body rythms, etc...

I take everything bad that I have ever said about pilots. You are all loyal and a band of brothers. Now if we can just get the union on board.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Excessive Stress changes a persons frame of mind and can lead to us having tunnel vision and narrowing of ones perceptions, which will lead us to miss things we would otherwise have caught.

I'm not saying that the rfp was the cause, stress is cumulative. Factor in early hours, and maybe they hadn't been sleeping right because they had things on their minds. All lead to a person not thinking as clearly as they should.

As has been said their is a large chain of events that lead to every accident.

 

[HoserASA]

Neither is the controller. They goofed just as any of us could have, have and will again.

What do you know about being a controller ohPlease? I did it in the USAF and that controller could have caught that plane on the wrong runway if he had been paying attention and looked out through those big plate glass windows with 360 degrees of unobstructed visibility, even in misty conditions. I'm not saying the controller is to blame, but he was a contributing factor as was the FAA for not having adequate staffing in that tower. I'm saying it was another link in the accident chain that wasn't broken. You'll see when the NTSB cites the FAA.

Hoser

 

[ohplease!]

What do you know about being a controller ohPlease? I did it in the USAF and that controller could have caught that plane on the wrong runway if he had been paying attention and looked out through those big plate glass windows with 360 degrees of unobstructed visibility, even in misty conditions. I'm not saying the controller is to blame, but he was a contributing factor as was the FAA for not having adequate staffing in that tower. I'm saying it was another link in the accident chain that wasn't broken. You'll see when the NTSB cites the FAA.

Hoser

well, heck fire!! I guess we shouldn't be departing about half of our early departures anymore. nobody /not enough controllers in the tower to make it safe.

as ususal, you've jumped off the bridge without tying on the bugee cord (actually reading what I had said).

 

[surplus1]

Gentlemen: The purpose of accident investigation is not to affix blame; it is to determine probable cause and contributing factors. Everything must be considered.

To believe that stress, regardless of its source, is not a factor in human performance is absurd. To assume further that Delta's treatment of Comair employees and the security of their future is not a major source of stress would be equally ludicrous. The stress is real and it is deliberately induced as a means of pressuring employees through fear. It does affect job preformance and all aspects of every day life. Job performance is just one of many areas affected by stress; it is not exempt.

Again, the purpose of investigation is not to affix blame; it is to reveal all aspects of the incident and determine its most probable cause.

The impact of stress is subjective and cannot be measured directly. Therefore, it will never emerge as the probable cause of any accident. Nevertheless, while it does not exonerate or reduce responsibility it is very real and it does affect performance.

Do not forget that people subjected to very high stress levels often commit suicide. If that can happen, and it does, other aspects of human behavior are also affected.

For example, as many of you have noted, "rest" is an important factor and it will be examined. In fact "stress" may be far more relevant but is far less likely to be examined, simply because it is subjective and far more difficult to determine or measure. There are no "rules" governing stress levels. That doesn't mean they are not real.

The controller cannot be "blamed" for anything. That does not change the fact that his performance or lack thereof is a contributing factor. It could be positive or negative. In this particular circumstance it was obviously negative.

Do I think the flight crew should have been aware of which runway they were on; of course I do. Do I think the controller should have been observing the aircraft that he cleared for takeoff; you bet I do. Is he equally responsible; NO. Is he a contributing factor; YES.

This accident happened; that is a fact. How it happened can be reconstructed but is not nearly as important as WHY it happened. The real WHY is often elusive.

Fins makes a valid point.

 

[joe_pilot]

I am now convinced that tomorrow I could walk up to a 50 seater (which I haven't flown in over a year)... Fire it up single pilot... Go to takeoff power and drive right into the terminal... Huge explosion and kill a bunch of people. This message board. God bless you all. Would defend me to the death. Talking about fatigue, low pay, stress at home, short overnights, body rythms, etc...

I take everything bad that I have ever said about pilots. You are all loyal and a band of brothers. Now if we can just get the union on board.

You sound depressed Crash. Check out this site. Or better yet, just call
1-800-SUICIDE. That's 1-800-784-2433.

We're here for you.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

I'm surprised one of you guys havne't forwarded the RFP to CNN yet and explained to them what it meant. They'd definitely put that on air and relate it to the crash. the only RFP's out there should be for new flying opportunities, not to take away someone else's job.

 

[FDJ2]

Gentlemen: The purpose of accident investigation is not to affix blame; it is to determine probable cause and contributing factors. Everything must be considered.

To believe that stress, regardless of its source, is not a factor in human performance is absurd. To assume further that Delta's treatment of Comair employees and the security of their future is not a major source of stress would be equally ludicrous. The stress is real and it is deliberately induced as a means of pressuring employees through fear. It does affect job preformance and all aspects of every day life. Job performance is just one of many areas affected by stress; it is not exempt.

Again, the purpose of investigation is not to affix blame; it is to reveal all aspects of the incident and determine its most probable cause.

The impact of stress is subjective and cannot be measured directly. Therefore, it will never emerge as the probable cause of any accident. Nevertheless, while it does not exonerate or reduce responsibility it is very real and it does affect performance.

Do not forget that people subjected to very high stress levels often commit suicide. If that can happen, and it does, other aspects of human behavior are also affected.

For example, as many of you have noted, "rest" is an important factor and it will be examined. In fact "stress" may be far more relevant but is far less likely to be examined, simply because it is subjective and far more difficult to determine or measure. There are no "rules" governing stress levels. That doesn't mean they are not real.

The controller cannot be "blamed" for anything. That does not change the fact that his performance or lack thereof is a contributing factor. It could be positive or negative. In this particular circumstance it was obviously negative.

Do I think the flight crew should have been aware of which runway they were on; of course I do. Do I think the controller should have been observing the aircraft that he cleared for takeoff; you bet I do. Is he equally responsible; NO. Is he a contributing factor; YES.

This accident happened; that is a fact. How it happened can be reconstructed but is not nearly as important as WHY it happened. The real WHY is often elusive.

Fins makes a valid point.

Outstanding post, Surplus.

 

[Smellycat]

Wait a minute

It didn't cause it, but it most certainly contributed to it.

When things like this happen, it does provide some degree of distraction. Combine that with everything else that contributed to this accident...

But as professionals we put those things behind us when we strap in right? YES.

This is a stretch. While there are clearly many contributory factors, you know what the bottom line will be. And we are remiss to not glean all we can from this unfortunate accident. We must learn and not repeat.

But the chain of events was in place. I hardly think a link will be this announcement and the stress therefrom.

 

[crjdxr]

Is constant stress, over time and at a lower 'dosage' any less detrimental than higher 'dosage' stress during a shorter period of time?

 

[av8er2]

I think that since there has been a few years of constant stress it has taken a toll on many pilots.

I am not saying it is to blame in the crash of Comair.

I thought it might be good to hear how some of you think the constant threat of job loss and pay loss is affecting you.

If it doesn't bother you then you must not care much about where you end up. Or you can move back in with your parents.

If a pilot says that what has gone on over the last few years has not affected them then they are not very smart about stress.

Or they work at Southwest, or at one of the few good airlines where mgt. does their job and they don't have to think too much about it.

 

[av8er2]

I would like to see ALPA take some of our dues and hire an outside firm or college capable of evaluating the average stress level of a regional pilot. With the constant threat of job loss I'll bet it will be high.

 

[PCL_128]

But as professionals we put those things behind us when we strap in right? YES.

That is certainly what all of us aim to do, but easier said than done. We can certainly try to put all of those stress stimuli in the back of our minds and not think about them while flying, but it isn't realistic to believe that we can entirely rid our minds of stress. You propose what would be true in a perfect world with perfect pilots. This world is far from perfect, and pilots even less so. To believe that we can ignore all things that cause stress is absurd.

 

[DrewBlows]

I thought it might be good to hear how some of you think the constant threat of job loss and pay loss is affecting you.

I'm on my second airline and I've already been furloughed this year. At the rate things are going I can look forward to my annual January furlough in 2007. Needless to say I feel the stress sometimes. How does it affect my performance? I really don't know, sometimes my landings are good sometimes they aren't. How do you quantify stress? I can tell you definitively that fatigue adversely affects my performance, but what is fatigue and what is stress? Maybe my performance would start to drop off in hour ten instead of hour eight (as an example) if I weren't stressed. I don't know.

 

[surplus1]

Outstanding post, Surplus.

Thank you, sir. It could not be more sincere.

 

[Nindiri]

Would anyone of us allow a doctor to operate on us if we knew that he was under constant stress from possible loss of job and wondering how he was going to feed his family? After all, he should compartmentalize and not allow it to affect his job performance, right? Why should we expect pilots to be any different?

 

[Flightdawg]

Outstanding post, Surplus.

Seconded.

 

[TDK90]

What do you know about being a controller ohPlease? I did it in the USAF and that controller could have caught that plane on the wrong runway if he had been paying attention and looked out through those big plate glass windows with 360 degrees of unobstructed visibility, even in misty conditions. I'm not saying the controller is to blame, but he was a contributing factor as was the FAA for not having adequate staffing in that tower. I'm saying it was another link in the accident chain that wasn't broken. You'll see when the NTSB cites the FAA.

Hoser

As another former military controller, I agree with Hoser, an alert controller should have spotted the mistake. Any kind of ground radar at LEX?

However, as Surplus eloquently opined, we need to find out the causal and contributory factors with an emphasis on human factors. In the Air Force (RAF) we had a civilian human factors specialist who would conduct his inquiry in tandem with the Board of Inquiry, he would interview family, friends etc to find out all manner of seemingly innocuous information, like food consumed within the last 24 hrs, family situation, last phone calls etc. to determine contributory human factors such as stress, fatigue etc. Human behaviour isn't random, for a significant error to be made such as this, a deviation from conditioned, normal behaviour, there will have to have been a number of significant contributory even causal human factors. It speaks volumes that the whole RFP thing has been removed from view.

 

[MELIT]

How much did this announcement stress you out as a pilot at Comair?

I would think that if you were not sure if you had a job in the near future it would be hard to not think about this all the time and not be stressed.

Yer stupid. it's the pilots fault. Nobody elts.

 

[king10pin02]

As another former military controller, I agree with Hoser, an alert controller should have spotted the mistake. Any kind of ground radar at LEX?

However, as Surplus eloquently opined, we need to find out the causal and contributory factors with an emphasis on human factors. In the Air Force (RAF) we had a civilian human factors specialist who would conduct his inquiry in tandem with the Board of Inquiry, he would interview family, friends etc to find out all manner of seemingly innocuous information, like food consumed within the last 24 hrs, family situation, last phone calls etc. to determine contributory human factors such as stress, fatigue etc. Human behaviour isn't random, for a significant error to be made such as this, a deviation from conditioned, normal behaviour, there will have to have been a number of significant contributory even causal human factors. It speaks volumes that the whole RFP thing has been removed from view.

there is no ground radar at LEX.

 

[DrewBlows]

Yer stupid. it's the pilots fault. Nobody elts.

I would respond to this, but I don't have a super secret decoder ring to decipher what it says.

 

[HoserASA]

As another former military controller, I agree with Hoser, an alert controller should have spotted the mistake. Any kind of ground radar at LEX?.

Thanks TDK. That's all I've been saying. An alert controller may have prevented the plane from taking off if he had been watching the plane. The PIC is/was ultimately responsible for operation of his plane, not questioning that. Fly safe!

Hoser

 

[HoserASA]

. Please stop looking for a place to place the blame for this. Delta isn't the evil giant that caused this. Neither is the controller. They goofed just as any of us could have, have and will again. Use this for what its good for; a wakeup call for us to be that much more vigilant.

Your statement contradicts itself ohplease. Ultimately the PIC was responsible, not questioning that at all. But, there will be plenty of blame to go around, from the airport management to the FAA, and to the controller. All I'm saying is an alert controller may have caught the mistake and prevented this accident. Fly safe!

Hoser