Delta NOT to make pension payment to pilots...

[pilot141]

Congress will have to get involved soon because retired people are AMONG THE MOST VOCAL and they actually vote. I am sure this pension-dumping trend is getting more attention than we think. I believe General Motors is also talking about dumping its massive pension liability as well - something will need to be done to stem the tide.......... But it comes down to timing and DAL and the others won't want to waste any time as Congress considers the problem.

Quoted because it's obvious: retired people are the ones collecting the pensions! Of COURSE they will be vocal!

Remember, pensions are deferred compensation. The company says: instead of paying you $X now, we will pay you $Y and then $Z forever. By reneging on their pension obligation the company is taking away money earned by the employees, but deferred.

If YOU were the one watching your promised, earned money being withheld, what would you say?

What would these same government employees say if THEIR pension was threatened?

 

[bafanguy]

DUH! I can't believe anyone is surprised. Come on ladies!

No one I know has expressed any "surprise" at these developments. I saw it coming 3 years ago and left 2 years ago ( 4 years early ). It was so obvious even I could see it.

 

[F9 Driver]

2500 senior pilots left with half of their pensions in a lump sum. This stopping of payments is pressure for Congress to give LONG term help, or they will dump it. Delta needs to conserve some cash, and they may do this for awhile. If in the end they need to dump it entirely, that is the way it goes IMO. We need to move forward again smoothly someday.

How do you pay off $10.6 billion in only 14 years? It would need to be twice that to allow us to even try to make some sort of profit. It appears an $8.4 billion bill will go to the PBGC soon....($8.4 out of $10.6 billion can go to the PBGC)
Bye Bye--General Lee

“2500 senior pilots left with half of their pensions in a lump sum. This stopping of payments is pressure for Congress to give LONG term help, or they will dump it. Delta needs to conserve some cash, and they may do this for awhile.

How do you pay off $10.6 billion in only 14 years? It would need to be twice that to allow us to even try to make some sort of profit. It appears an $8.4 billion bill will go to the PBGC soon....($8.4 out of $10.6 billion can go to the PBGC)”

You’ve GOT to be kidding! How do you think these legacy carriers got to this point? They bet your retirement on the tech bubble and lost. Now in a fit of 21st century hubris they are saying “I’m in debt up to my eyeballs. Somebody help me!” The lawmakers say “Not on my watch or to my constituents.” And allow this travesty of justice to wreak havoc on the rest of the industry.

This mess was created five years ago and is just coming home to roost.

“If in the end they need to dump it entirely, that is the way it goes IMO. We need to move forward again smoothly someday.”

How much time do you have left to work before 60 General? If it were you or yours who was coming up on mandatory I don’t think you would have such a caviler attitude.

It is why I fundamentally oppose these bankruptcy filings. All the carriers do is screw over the people (investors, creditors, and employees) who had good faith deals prior to the gross mismanagement of the company which in turn screws over the companies who have a sustainable business model.

 

[~~~^~~~]

F9:

If you oppose bankruptcy, what do you suppose as an alternative?

Delta has no choice but to dump debt obligations, or the Company will go away and the net result will be the same - no payments. To the tens of thousands of people who currently work and earn a living a Delta, your attitude towards them seems cavalier, Sir.

Bankruptcy is designed to balance these interests. The principal concern is for the future of the business, which does not bode well claimants no longer engaged in the productive functions of the business.

If you remember how the Eastern guys were treated you know how this business gets.

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

“2500 senior pilots left with half of their pensions in a lump sum. This stopping of payments is pressure for Congress to give LONG term help, or they will dump it. Delta needs to conserve some cash, and they may do this for awhile.

How do you pay off $10.6 billion in only 14 years? It would need to be twice that to allow us to even try to make some sort of profit. It appears an $8.4 billion bill will go to the PBGC soon....($8.4 out of $10.6 billion can go to the PBGC)”

You’ve GOT to be kidding! How do you think these legacy carriers got to this point? They bet your retirement on the tech bubble and lost. Now in a fit of 21st century hubris they are saying “I’m in debt up to my eyeballs. Somebody help me!” The lawmakers say “Not on my watch or to my constituents.” And allow this travesty of justice to wreak havoc on the rest of the industry.

This mess was created five years ago and is just coming home to roost.

“If in the end they need to dump it entirely, that is the way it goes IMO. We need to move forward again smoothly someday.”

How much time do you have left to work before 60 General? If it were you or yours who was coming up on mandatory I don’t think you would have such a caviler attitude.

It is why I fundamentally oppose these bankruptcy filings. All the carriers do is screw over the people (investors, creditors, and employees) who had good faith deals prior to the gross mismanagement of the company which in turn screws over the companies who have a sustainable business model.

F9,

Too bad your company never offered it to any of your employees. The DB plan is a broken promise waiting to happen, telling employees that the employer will take care of them for the rest of their lives. What happens if the airline or employer has tough times? It happens you know. Bad things happen (like 9-11) and businesses sometimes can't afford those promises. Those 2500 pilots were very lucky they could take half. Look at the NW pilots---they don't have that chance, and will sacrifice their young to keep something for the senior. Not at DL. Our senior guys left with a chunk, and now they "got theirs." The rest of us have to fend for ourselves now and will not keep it around and allow us to suffer. I am 40 by the way.

And, I love your anti-bankruptcy stance. How many times has F9 been through the ringer? Weren't they sold to Continental for awhile, then came back as F9, and then had some hard times again? Delta has never had a financial problem until now. We have "tried" to stay out of court, for 4 years. We made and effort, and now we have to restructure. Thank gawd F9 has never had any problems.........

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

Holy Cow!

You are one cold-blooded Dude! How you would look at it if you were depending on those pension payments as your income?? You gonna write all those Delta retirees off, just like that? I can't believe you really mean that...

I know, you'll say "there is no other choice, Delta just doesn't have the money, the money could better be used for other things, etc...."

I'll tell you what - I'll even believe that....WHEN Grinstein and the rest of top management give up all their salaries. After all, DAL just doesn't have the money, etc.....

What these guys are trying to do should be a crime. Give GG and the rest of them a "perp walk" like the Enron guys got!!!

Hey Kid,

Did they teach you to read yet? I said skip "a couple of payments." That DOES NOT IMPLY LONG TERM. Of course the pension payments mean a lot to the recipients - I never said they did not. However, if delaying or skipping a few of the payments helped to ensure DAL's longevity and provided the "political impetus" to enact legislative change (i.e., enough people were upset and vocal about it to spur change through their elected officials), then perhaps skipping a few payments would be worth the pain.

Kid, what's the alternative in this case? DAL could hand the obligation over to the Gov't just like UAL and USAirways and then the pensioners would also be hurt with much lower pension payments. In a turnaround, cash is king. Cash will buy a company time to restructure. If DAL wants to extend the terms of the pension obligation (and thus keep the obligation), then we should ensure that DAL has the lattitude to do so.

I wouldn't want for anyone to miss pension payments - I am just saying that "buying some time" might pay off in the long-run and help to keep the obligation in house. I never advocated dumping the pension obligation.

 

[bafanguy]

Hey Kid,

Did they teach you to read yet? I said skip "a couple of payments." That DOES NOT IMPLY LONG TERM. recipients -

. .

Heavy,

Unfortunately, it will not be "a couple of payments" by DL's own memos. Robert Kight, VP Compensation & Benefits, said in a Sept 16th memo to retirees referring to the NQ payments that, "...we currently do not plan to make such payments from this point forward." That DOES imply long term. The game is over with the post-game wrapup to occur shortly.

 

[Flopgut]

F9,

Too bad your company never offered it to any of your employees. The DB plan is a broken promise waiting to happen, telling employees that the employer will take care of them for the rest of their lives. What happens if the airline or employer has tough times? It happens you know. Bad things happen (like 9-11) and businesses sometimes can't afford those promises. Those 2500 pilots were very lucky they could take half. Look at the NW pilots---they don't have that chance, and will sacrifice their young to keep something for the senior. Not at DL. Our senior guys left with a chunk, and now they "got theirs." The rest of us have to fend for ourselves now and will not keep it around and allow us to suffer. I am 40 by the way.



Bye Bye--General Lee

Quick question: Can the PBGC come back and get any portion of the lump sum payments made to the early retirements? I had heard they could and I hope that is not true. I would think that the instant one received the money it could be put toward something/invested essentially making it disappear. Has the PBGC come after anything paid to USAir or UAL early pilot retirees?

BTW, which airline is F9? Frontier? The FAL pilot retirement plan (FARP) was fully funded by the time Lorenzo got a hold of the airline. He had so much contempt for the FAL group (they had averted his initial purchase effort by aligning with Peoples Express) that he replaced the fund monies with NYAir stock, then sold NYAir into CAL thereby taking ALL of the FAL pilots money. Eventually, they received some of it back. Just a little useless info...that was a different airline.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Maybe the managements pension/golden parachute needs to also be tied to the PBG&C.

 

[General Lee]

Flopgut,


The PBGC never has done that. Could they? I don't know really, but I would move my $1 million to Costa Rica and buy myself a whorehouse---and only be the manager.....Really, only the manager (my wife is watching me type this....I love you honey....)


Bye Bye--General Lee