Delta halts furloughee recall for indef period

[TonyC]

-Continued from above -




Remember, the "Enabling Resolution to Negotiate Letter of Agreement concerning Early Retirement Mitigation," passed September 14, 2004 in Special MEC Meeting, Herndon, Virginia, stated the problem, but it did not state that there was only one solution.

WHEREAS the Company's current financial situation has created an unusually high rate of early retirements among Delta pilots, and

WHEREAS the recently experienced rate of early retirements has caused pilot shortages in certain positions, and

WHEREAS a further increase in the rate of early retirements could cause substantial cancellations of Company flying, and

WHEREAS Delta management has requested modifications to the Pilot Working Agreement that would reduce the possibility of a substantial disruption of operations by permitting post-retirement Delta pilots to continue as active pilots,

If you're afraid of losing Captains too quickly, do something to entice them to stay. Be creative.

Anyway, to answer your charge. Yes, there were other options, we did actually elaborate on what those ways were, and you see what you got.

 

[DaveGriffin]

..........
This was the inherent danger in DALPA's strategy of waiting till the last minute to seriously negotiate.

Sure, it kept up the status quo (high pay) and it put pressure on creditors (who in the end gave very little), but it also gave DALPA little room to negotiate....time (and money) had simply run out.

Unfortunately, the junior pilots paid the highest price...although I don't know why that surprises anyone here. The junior guys ALWAYS pay the highest price...it's nothing unique to DALPA.

The MEC knew that the strategy of denial and procrastination ("full pay to the last day") was a strategy that left them little wiggle room if market conditions didn't improve. In fact, market conditions, fuel prices and pricing power, deteriorated and the only way to salvage anything at all for the seniors was to hang the furloughees out to dry.

What did the seniors stand to loose with this strategy? Nothing really. They were getting historically high hourly rates for the last three years. Why scr*w that up? They only risked a chap 11, which they were able to avoid by finally giving into DLs demands at the last minute, at a much higher cost to the furloughees than they would have liked. But better the juniors take it in the shorts than the seniors.

It is the classic situation of evaluating risk and reward. The seniors risked the financial well-being of the juniors in return for the viabilty of the seniors' pension dollars.

Unfortunatley Med is right, there is nothing new here. The threat to the juniors' careers is the same from mangement as it is from the AARP faction of the MEC.

 

[grinder]

I am sickened. I finally agree with DaveGriffen. This is a real kick in the bawls. The dream is finally dead. I'm done. For the last three years there have been many ways to keep the f'd guys flying, all dropped by the wayside in hopes that there will be a better Delta to come back to. We all bought in. Finally guys start coming back in a measurable way and now this **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ake. It's worse at other airlines. Really is.

WRT retirements, it is highly likely that everyone who was going to go, is gone.

There is no way retirements will offset PBS and work rule efficiencies.

Expansion will continue with RJs. Mainline increases will be minimal. I can't complain about 70 + seaters on 2 hr. legs. They just aren't that bad. The 50 seaters still suk.

Stand by for a merger. Who knows how that will play out. Not to mention age 63, cabotage, more LCC's, God forbid another act of terrorism.

When the bottom 400 finally get the call, it may well be be in the 2010 timeframe.

The Cobra was great, but everyone should have another career or at least another airline job by now if they're still in the industry. We were all pretty resouceful guys. Hope everyone still there enjoys the stock options, lump sums, etc. It's blood money, but so what. I don't think everything is settled yet. Not by a long shot. BK is still an option for the useless management team.

I wanted to be a pilot since I was a kid. There was a million reasons not to do it, like money, family, all that lame stuff. My biggest reason for doing it was that I didn't want to be sitting at a desk someday thinking to myself "I wonder what would have happened if I had given flying a shot?"

Today I sat at my fine paying desk job (bald, divorced, getting older) looking around at all the young guys and remembering all the cool stuff I got to do (Navy and Airlines), and I felt bad for them because they have no idea what they are missing stuck in their lousy little cubicles. Yeah, it was cool.

Best thing I can say about my flying career is that I'm glad I gave it a shot. "Time of your life, kid." No regrets. None.


Grinder out.

 

[Russ]

You missed your true calling Grinder, you should have been a writer. I feel like jumping off the building with you now.

 

[General Lee]

Grinder,

Calm down man. We still don't know if the delay in recalls is just temporary. It sounds like on the DL forum that crew planning is just trying to find out where the DFW displacements are going to go before assigning new recall classes. That would save them money by not having to have the recalled pilots go through more than one ground school. As far as the RJs go, there hasn't even been a decision on who will get them, and most will probably replace many of the 50 seat RJs since their CASM is so high. Age 63? Atleast we just had a bunch of early retirements---had they not gone you would be furloughed even longer. Those guys are gone. I doubt we will go there(age 63), since a couple more airlines will probably go away--resulting in plenty of unemployed people. Cabotage? Nah. The threat of terrorism will not allow that. Aeroflot will not fly between LAS and LAX. No way. And you say there is no way retirements will negate PBS? Dalpa and the management pilots I have talked to said that it would be a wash or we would have to continue to call back people when it is all over with. Everyone keeps saying this will be an "aggressive" expansion plan. And mainline expansion will be minimal? Have you seen any of the additional INTL flights or all of the new flights from our remaining hubs? And, the turn time initiative will result in a net of 20 or more aircraft. That is not minimal. Someone on the DL forum said we are only getting rid of 9 planes in 2005, and there is a good chance we will order something with Boeing before the end of 2005, and GE has attached something with our financing that may result in some 737-700s. (yes, also some RJs---but that would again be a part of replacing some of the 50 seaters)

So, I hope you don't give up and know that this all could be just a burp in the plan. We really don't know yet the intentions of management, and I am sure Dalpa is looking into it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

this is exactly why I voted no to the TA. I felt like this would happen, and I have no doubt that as soon as they get rid of the PRPs they will furlough more. My advice to the furloughees is assume you are not coming back. Press on to greener pastures and if that doesn't work and you get called, then come back. But I would not plan on it.

 

[FDJ2]

Once there are no PRP's...Delta can furlough at will.

I agree, get rid of the PRPs and ther is very little in the way of meaningful furlough protection in LOA 46 other than preferential hiring into a minimum wage job and the requirement to have all DAL pilots back in 2008. But then again this was a massive concessionary deal, so there are very few silver linings. Having said that, I still think I'd prefer our current contract, with all its short falls, to that of AA, UAL or US.

 

[General Lee]

Does anyone really think on here that we will be able to pay off our huge debt by using a lot more RJs and less large mainline aircraft? I doubt it. We have a cap that will not change (and a quarterly limit), more retirements on the way, and a contractual obligation to bring back all of the furloughs by Aug of 2008. I just can't see them furloughing again in large numbers, and then having to return everyone by Aug of 2008. That would be a logistical and financial nightmare for the company. And, to think that they would just pull the Chap 11 trigger just to get out of it is ridiculous, especially since all the big wigs just got huge amounts of options. I don't share your pessimism.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[spanky2]

After so many punches and beatings, that numb feeling sets in and it just doesn't hurt.

After so many partial truths,lies, and deception (from mgt and DALPA) you quickly realize the only person you can trust is the guy you see in the mirror.

Vision #1 - GG and JK and Fred and Michelle and Bob and the others sitting around there big mahagony desks, clinking there scotch glasses and saying (in their best Monty Burns voice)... "EXCELLENT...it's all coming together as we planned". They are constantly 2 steps ahead of DALPA. They keep DALPA in the reactive mode with one hand while the other hand sets up the next phase of stock grants and RJ purchases. But I feel better cause DALPA is "watching it closely."

Vision #2 - there is no vision, there is no plan and they ain't got a flipping clue how to run an airline much less a hot dog stand.

Vison #3 - DALPA pilots on an island, watching DAL mgt ride their golden parasails, towed behind a boat driven by the DAL BOD. The DALPA pilots have the furloughees locked in cages, throwing them an occasional bone so they don't get too skinny. Then they feed on them to keep up their strength so they can fly green slips. Ah, law of the jungle...ain't it grand.

 

[michael707767]

Vision #1 - GG and JK and Fred and Michelle and Bob and the others sitting around there big mahagony desks, clinking there scotch glasses and saying (in their best Monty Burns voice)... "EXCELLENT...it's all coming together as we planned". They are constantly 2 steps ahead of DALPA. They keep DALPA in the reactive mode with one hand while the other hand sets up the next phase of stock grants and RJ purchases. But I feel better cause DALPA is "watching it closely."

Vision #2 - there is no vision, there is no plan and they ain't got a flipping clue how to run an airline much less a hot dog stand.

actually, I think its a combo of these two. As far as dealings with the union I think they are two steps ahead of ALPA. But I also think they don't have a clue as to how to run and airline.

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

Excellent summary Mr. Burns! (I mean spanky2)

 

[JohnQ]

As far as dealings with the union I think they are two steps ahead of ALPA. But I also think they don't have a clue as to how to run and airline.

I've never understood the anti-anyTA crowd. The same group that claims (with some legitimacy) that mgmt is absolutely incapable of running this airline also claims that this same mgmt team can forever manipulate the pilot group like a puppeteer. How can it constantly be both ways?

That does not mean that I trust the mgmt team, nor do I discount the fact that they will nickel and dime the contract to death. But they are NOT smarter than we are, nor are they capable of infinite variations of "taking the pilots to the woodshed." If they were that smart, they would also me managing a hugely profitable airline--which they are not.

 

[michael707767]

I've never understood the anti-anyTA crowd. The same group that claims (with some legitimacy) that mgmt is absolutely incapable of running this airline also claims that this same mgmt team can forever manipulate the pilot group like a puppeteer. How can it constantly be both ways?

That does not mean that I trust the mgmt team, nor do I discount the fact that they will nickel and dime the contract to death. But they are NOT smarter than we are, nor are they capable of infinite variations of "taking the pilots to the woodshed." If they were that smart, they would also me managing a hugely profitable airline--which they are not.

I don't think management is that smart. I just think ALPA is that stupid. Lets face it, at every airline represented by ALPA, everytime management even hints at BK, ALPA blinks. Its not that complicated. In fact, I think the very fact that they know ALPA will once again bail them out is one reason airline management has not addressed the kinds of things they really need to do to become profitable. We are subsidizing their inability to run the airline.

Taking advantage of a bunch of sheep being willing to be led to the slaughter does not imply that management knows what they are doing.

 

[spanky2]

Could it be that ALPA is really a dinosaur? or a paper tiger? or a toothless lion? or the BORG - "all will be assimilated / resistence is futile" (for all you Star Trek NG fans)

ALPA rattles it's sabers and thumps its chest and says support the PAC / give us more money and we will protect you. Yeah, right. Do pilots need a union ? ... I think yes. Are union leaders could people...absolutley. But they have to stop "eating their young" ... imagine how things would change if furloughs were done randomly vs by seniority...and if furloughed pilots were allowed to vote ... heaven forbid that thought.

ALPA is a "necessary evil" is this day and age but it needs a major overhaul ... and new leadership for sure. Must evolve from "reactive" to "proactive" organization...and get new leadership. Amazing how a lot of problems are solved by good leadership.

Back to helping Muslims meet Allah.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Could it be that ALPA is really a dinosaur? or a paper tiger? or a toothless lion? or the BORG - "all will be assimilated / resistence is futile" (for all you Star Trek NG fans)

ALPA rattles it's sabers and thumps its chest and says support the PAC / give us more money and we will protect you. Yeah, right. Do pilots need a union ? ... I think yes. Are union leaders could people...absolutley. But they have to stop "eating their young" ... imagine how things would change if furloughs were done randomly vs by seniority...and if furloughed pilots were allowed to vote ... heaven forbid that thought.

ALPA is a "necessary evil" is this day and age but it needs a major overhaul ... and new leadership for sure. Must evolve from "reactive" to "proactive" organization...and get new leadership. Amazing how a lot of problems are solved by good leadership.

The reason that the young are getting eaten here is because the AARP faction (those about to retire in the next 7 years or so) controls the MEC. The guys a bit further away from retirement, in the middle of the list (like GL), are ‘enablers’ who support the AARP factions’ position because they see themselves as the next wave of retirees.

Delta held the pension $$ ransom and got everything they wanted. It is all about the pension $$, that’s why the leadership is so weak. The senior pilots and the retirees were scared sh*tless that pension $$ would be taken away. Though neither group voted, existing retirees got what they wanted from the TA and the furloughees got nothing.

The following article is priceless:


http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/delta/1004/28deltadeal.html
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 10/28/04

Dave Davis, a former Boeing 777 captain who retired from Delta in 2003, said the deal could help clear up a shadow over his and other retirees' pensions.

Davis, 57, estimates he could lose up to $75,000 a year in pension payments if Delta filed for bankruptcy and terminated the pilots' pension plan.

"I'm glad that the pilots reached an agreement. I'm disappointed that it took so long," said Davis, who lives in Fayetteville. "There's something wrong with the process that it has to come down to the eleventh hour to reach an agreement."


The “I don’t care about anyone but me” comment of C2K retiree Davis above says it all. I feel so bad he lost sleep worrying about his pension during the negotiations. It really is a shame that he felt disappointment with the protracted length of the process.


The retirees and the seniors don’t care who they have to step on to secure what's left of the pension funds. The furloughees had NOTHING before the TA, and have EVEN LESS after.

Back to helping Muslims meet Allah.

God bless you.

 

[Boeingman]

Back to helping Muslims meet Allah.

I am envious I cannot be there to help. Give them my warmest regards when you fry them.

 

[Boeingman]

I don't think management is that smart. I just think ALPA is that stupid. Lets face it, at every airline represented by ALPA, everytime management even hints at BK, ALPA blinks. Its not that complicated. In fact, I think the very fact that they know ALPA will once again bail them out is one reason airline management has not addressed the kinds of things they really need to do to become profitable. We are subsidizing their inability to run the airline.

Taking advantage of a bunch of sheep being willing to be led to the slaughter does not imply that management knows what they are doing.

Yes. Yes, finally somebody else gets it. To bad the MEC's at all the airlines can't understand this simple fact.

 

[dtfl]

Well - some news from ALPA and Delta...

So congrats to the frickin 31 whopping people who will get back to work this year..........

Item one. This week, ALPA met with Crew Resources personnel to discuss the
calculations supporting the company decision to virtually discontinue recalls
for at least the first quarter of 2005. The recall of 31 pilots is projected
for 2005, assuming no early retirements after January '05 or other unplanned
attrition during calendar year '05. Management's stated aim is to arrive at
minimum contractual staffing levels as quickly as possible, utilizing increased
caps to cover shortfalls until all Letter 46 scheduling efficiencies, including
PBS bidding, are implemented later in the year.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Out matched

So congrats to the frickin 31 whopping people who will get back to work this year..........

Item one. This week, ALPA met with Crew Resources personnel to discuss the
calculations supporting the company decision to virtually discontinue recalls
for at least the first quarter of 2005. The recall of 31 pilots is projected
for 2005, assuming no early retirements after January '05 or other unplanned
attrition during calendar year '05. Management's stated aim is to arrive at
minimum contractual staffing levels as quickly as possible, utilizing increased
caps to cover shortfalls until all Letter 46 scheduling efficiencies, including
PBS bidding, are implemented later in the year.

Oh, I see. When our association said they expect recalls to continue, they were refering to 2-3 a month. Well, at least we have the Aug 08 date.......yeah right Aug 08 my a$$.

Tough spot to be in, can't trust management or our representation. Not to say dalpa did it on purpose, they were just out matched by a long shot by the company.

I guess when you give up furlough protection and scope, what the he11 should we expect.


RIP D.D.

 

[michael707767]

Oh, I see. When our association said they expect recalls to continue, they were refering to 2-3 a month. Well, at least we have the Aug 08 date.......yeah right Aug 08 my a$$.

Yeah, Aug 08. Anyone want to bet on the odds of that one happening? If you are a furloughed Delta pilot, its time to press on. You will not be coming back. I don't say that to be mean, I just think you are best served by being told the truth.