Delta halts furloughee recall for indef period

[dtfl]

How backed up is our training dept? anyone?

FURLOUGH RECALL

December 6, 2004

On December 2, Delta management informed ALPA that it would cease the recall of pilots after January 1 for an indeterminate period. Although Delta is still in financial distress, this decision appears to be inconsistent with management's business plan, which indicated moderate block hour growth over the next two years.

While management's decision is not a contractual violation, we will closely
monitor this situation to ensure the working agreement is not violated. Your
MEC Scheduling Committee will be meeting with management this week to examine
the staffing situation further to ensure the minimum staffing requirements are
being met. We will report any developments to you.

 

[sleepy]

How backed up is our training dept? anyone?

FURLOUGH RECALL

December 6, 2004

On December 2, Delta management informed ALPA that it would cease the recall of pilots after January 1 for an indeterminate period. Although Delta is still in financial distress, this decision appears to be inconsistent with management's business plan, which indicated moderate block hour growth over the next two years.

While management's decision is not a contractual violation, we will closely
monitor this situation to ensure the working agreement is not violated. Your
MEC Scheduling Committee will be meeting with management this week to examine
the staffing situation further to ensure the minimum staffing requirements are
being met. We will report any developments to you.

What happened to the no-furlough clause? Did they deal that away in the latest concessions?

 

[Russ]

"What happened to the no-furlough clause? Did they deal that away in the latest concessions"

The clause was akin to a placebo pill, makes you feel good but doesn't do anything for you.

 

[General Lee]

Russ is correct. That No Furlough Clause would have been the first thing to go in any Chap 11 filing. Sure, it would have lasted for a couple months, but then the company and judge would have tossed it.


I think the reason the recalls have stopped temporarily is because there is a lot of training in the pipeline, and our DFW based pilots will all be displaced within the next 6 months, and not all of them will be going to SLC on the MD-90. That will mean other pilots currently flying will change from other planes to get onto the SLC MD-90, and so on. There are also new line check people that need to be trained, and APD's will be all FOs in the near future (guys giving type rides) because it is cheaper---so they will have to be trained as well. It is really just a huge training cluster fukc. With 700 or so furloughs still to be recalled, I forsee more coming back slowly over the next year or two, and then more coming back as we get our new 737-800s and maybe some sort of future 100 seaters. All of the current line check guys I fly with regularly out here in ATL seem to think this is a temporary delay. I hope so.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Russ]

"and maybe some sort of future 100 seaters"

Anything recent bouncing around about purchasing this size aircraft?

 

[FDJ2]

What happened to the no-furlough clause? Did they deal that away in the latest concessions?

The "no furlough clause", as it was originally written, is gone and so is the recall rate. They have been replaced by language that would preclude any additional furloughs while any category is under staffed, such as can be found in the 767-500 captain category today and the recall of the remaining 716 furloughed pilots must now be complete nlt August 2008.

 

[MedFlyer]

Keep in mind that over the next four years, DL intends to retire almost 90 aircraft (732, 733, 762). Some of these retirements will be offset by increased aircraft utilization, but with that many retirements recalls are bound to be somewhat slow.

 

[TonyC]

On December 2, Delta management informed ALPA that it would cease the recall of pilots after January 1 for an indeterminate period.

No big surprise.






It's not a violation of any "No furlough" provision because it's not a furlough - - it's just a delay of the recalls, AS ALLOWED by mutual, contractual agreement.


General Lee - - I hope it's indeed just a temporary setback in what you predict to be an expedited recall of furloughs, but I have my doubts.

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,


More aircraft are coming on schedule, including some stretched 737s and 2 777s. Also, we have no idea when we would order any new aircraft (except some CR7s or E170s at competitive rates). My pal in the ATL CPO told me that we probably wouldn't order any new aircraft for a few months. But, he said they have been having some recent discussions with Boeing and Embraer.


Tony C,

Again, not going to bankruptcy averted a lot more added furloughs. Also, this announcement did not say "no more recalls"---it said they would stop for an "inderterminable" amount of time---so they can't yet determine when they will restart the recalls.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TonyC]

Tony C,

Again, not going to bankruptcy averted ...

It makes sense to wait ...

Why pay for twice the training?

General Lee,

You don't need to explain it to me. I think I understand your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. Frankly, it sounds a whole lot like what a Delta Manager might say.

It might be a better exercise to identify the pilot who was next in line to be recalled from furlough, who until now was anxiously awaiting a long-overdue Christmas present - - a certified letter from Delta - - and come up with a rationale that will make him feel better, that will make his childrens' Christmas brighter. Instead of thinking in esoteric ideas, put a practical, real face on the problem. What do you suppose "indeterminate" means to him? How does he break the news to his wife and kids? How do PRPs help him?

What can you tell him?



.

 

[Vortilon]

Ah, yes....the Grinstein that Stole Christmas......

Gotta love the furlough.

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


I would tell him to hang in there and wait for this process to clear itself out. It would have been worse for him and he would have been out longer had we gone into Chap11. The statement did not say recalls were cancelled for next year. We will probably hear more about this in the near future.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TonyC]

I would tell him to hang in there and wait for this process to clear itself out. It would have been worse for him and he would have been out longer had we gone into Chap11. The statement did not say recalls were cancelled for next year. We will probably hear more about this in the near future.

Slow down there, pardn'er. You skipped right over the first part of the exercise. IDENTIFY the next guy in line, get an employee number, get his name. Put a face on it, a real, live, breathing, red-blooded face on it. Look him in the eye and explain why it's more important for the early retiree to have a paycheck next month than him. Look over his shoulders into the eyes of the wife and children that depend on him for their livelihood.

It's easy when you remain detached. It's easy in an academic environment. "Hang in there" rings hollow to someone who has just received devastating news such as this.

 

[FlyingSig]

The "no furlough clause", as it was originally written, is gone and so is the recall rate. They have been replaced by language that would preclude any additional furloughs while any category is under staffed, such as can be found in the 767-500 captain category today and the recall of the remaining 716 furloughed pilots must now be complete nlt August 2008.

It's my understanding that the "understaffing" part of the agreement only applies to the 737-800 and below...thus if the widebodies are short but the narrow bodies are staffed, then furloughs can legally happen. I understand the intent of your post - but the -400/500's being short really does nothing to help the 716 nor the bottom part of the current list.

 

[737 Pylt]

Slow down there, pardn'er. You skipped right over the first part of the exercise. IDENTIFY the next guy in line, get an employee number, get his name. Put a face on it, a real, live, breathing, red-blooded face on it. Look him in the eye and explain why it's more important for the early retiree to have a paycheck next month than him. Look over his shoulders into the eyes of the wife and children that depend on him for their livelihood.

Tony C:
You got that right. This whole thing stinks. We have PRP's on the property and furloughees that will not be recalled. I don't think anyone can identify with "how they would feel," until they "have walked a mile in that persons shoes!"
737

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


There you go again, SUPPOSING THAT I DON'T CARE OR DON'T SEE THIS FACE TO FACE WITH SOMEBODY THAT IS GOING THROUGH THIS. You've really got to STOP thinking you know anything about me or what I have seen. I have said many many times that I have very close friends that have gone through this and/or are still going through this. I was LUCKY to have seniority, and that isn't my fault. Don't tell me how to act or what to think, because I am already there partner. You don't know what I have done, how I have helped, or anything about me.


I know the PRP thing is unfair to the furloughs, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE HAD WE GONE CHAP 11---NO DOUBT PARTNER. MORE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN FURLOUGHED, EXTENDING THE CURRENT FURLOUGHS OUT TIME. That is a fact, and we probably would have had to park planes too because of lack of senior Captains to fly the widebodies----making things even worse. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THIS? THE NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE WOULD HAVE BEEN DUMPED, AND AT THE SAME TIME WE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN CHAP 11----DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD SCENARIO?


Flying SIG,

As long as there are PRPs on the property, and I think there are around 80 right now including the line check airman, there can be no additional furloughing of pilots. Those guys are there to keep our big planes flying and to provide training until their replacements are trained. The IRS is watching this situation (heard from an ATL MEC member), and they have set time limits due to "double dipping" with lump sum retirement and current pay. If they had all left and we did not have this agreement, we would have filed Chap 11 and more furloughs would have ensued, followed by horrible work rules and a smaller airline.


737pylt,

The recalls will eventually be recalled, primarily because we didn't have to park planes due to no Captains on those widebodies. Sure, the PRPs will be around for a LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME, and then they will be gone---bye bye. Some of them decided to leave 3-4 years early (at 56 years old etc), and that will mean the recalls will eventually be better off. A healthy airline is better than a chronically ill one, and there are still agreements that need to be honored, like returning all of the furloughs, which will eventually happen. It is hard to see that right now, but it will eventually happen.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

It's my understanding that the "understaffing" part of the agreement only applies to the 737-800 and below...thus if the widebodies are short but the narrow bodies are staffed, then furloughs can legally happen. I understand the intent of your post - but the -400/500's being short really does nothing to help the 716 nor the bottom part of the current list.

I believe it does through the language in LOA 45, since the company would be precluded from employing any post retirement pilots if any additional DAL pilots are furloughed. So long as there is a single PRP on the property, or any category is under manned, the company can not furlough any additional DAL pilots and maintain LOA 45 in effect.

 

[FlyingSig]

Flying SIG,

As long as there are PRPs on the property, and I think there are around 80 right now including the line check airman, there can be no additional furloughing of pilots. Those guys are there to keep our big planes flying and to provide training until their replacements are trained. The IRS is watching this situation (heard from an ATL MEC member), and they have set time limits due to "double dipping" with lump sum retirement and current pay. If they had all left and we did not have this agreement, we would have filed Chap 11 and more furloughs would have ensued, followed by horrible work rules and a smaller airline.

GL,



I understand that fully. That's not the issue I was commenting on. The furlough protections in LOA 46 have changed substantially.



In LOA 45, PRP's can be employed until 12/31/05. That's in writing that all the lawyers agreed to when both parties signed the agreement. If the IRS had/has an issue, then the agreement will need to be modified (somehow I just don't envision that happening..besides, I take everything from council 44 with a grain of salt.. if it can't be confirmed by radicals at 47 and 66 then it can't really be true ) Delta can keep these folks employed (and the LCA PRP's are in a separate category then the line pilot PRP's thus not counted in the percentages) until they either staff to 110% in the category (and given that they don't want a single surplus pilot right now....well, do the math) OR until 12/31/05 whichever comes first.



So.... given the PRP's are keeping the big airplane left seat staffed and the DFW displacements will keep the other seats staffed ...



...sometime between 12/31/05 and 8/1/08 Delta will have the ability to furlough at will (given the lower categories remain properly staffed).. hmmm PBS kicks in (NLT) October '05 ... 90 days furlough notice required = Jan 1 '06



But wait...ALPA still holds a card in the game ... LOA 45 allows ALPA to tell Delta they can't hire any more PRP's starting Feb 1 (hmm, the first month with no recalls...funny how all this math works out). Wanna take bets on if they exercise that clause? That would take action instead of words...sorry, I digress.



GL, I appreciate your optimism and for the most part I share much of it. I just think it might be time to check the color of your glasses....

 

[FlyingSig]

So long as there is a single PRP on the property, or any category is under manned, the company can not furlough any additional DAL pilots and maintain LOA 45 in effect.

See my response to GL as far as LOA 45.

As far as undermanned categories (Negotiators Notepad 04-08):

o ​

​

Company may not furlough within 3 bid periods of the cap or ALV having been greater than 75 hours. This test is applied only to aircraft in the B-737-900 First Officer position and below.


​

That's it... get the AVL to 75...give 90 days notice. Contractual requirements met.

 

[General Lee]

Flying Sig,


Sure, after Dec 31st, 2005----after the PRPs are gone, they are allowed to furlough. But, they also have to bring back all of the remaining furloughs by Aug 2008, and by adding more they will have to bring more back before that time is up. There will also be more retirements, and our fleet size may actually grow if the expansion plans are met. We really don't know what will happen in the next few years. More INTL flights are planned, and expansion of our domestic hubs will take place in FEB. So far, contraction hasn't happened. It could have been much worse.



Bye Bye--General Lee