Delta - DCI Seniority List (split from other thread)

[Lolikoka]

Delta Pilots and RJs

DL_Infidel,

We may have to agree to disagree, but that's OK. You stated above that fuloughed Delta pilots should go to the left seat of the ASA/Comair RJs, and that Delta should not spend its money on aircraft that Delta pilots are not flying.

I'll start a discussion that is sure to get flamed by some, but I'll try to explain my thoughts, and then the crowds can join in the carnage that follows. Granted, nothing happens without Delta management's consent - but on a web-board we can all run the airlines. Nobody is perfect, and my thoughts are sure to be supplanted by something better.

I agree that "Delta" pilots should be flying RJs. With that thought in mind, I offer the following for discussion and flaming.

First, I think ASA and Comair seniority lists should be integrated with date of hire seniority between the two. That's a done deal between the ASA/Comair MECs if Delta management were serious about cutting the costs of running two very similar airlines. THEN, that combined list should be stapled onto the bottom of the Delta mainline list. (Wait - all of you in the peanut gallery don't flame yet - hear me out first). THEN ASA and Comair should stop hiring off the street and open all new-hire positions to the Delta furloughs who want it. Those Delta pilots should come in at the bottom of the seniority list for bidding purposes, but I don't have a problem if they keep their Delta longevity for pay purposes. This idea was brought up on another thread a couple of days ago - and it sounds OK to me. For Example, a furloughed Delta pilot with 3 years of longevity would be in the right seat of an RJ at year 3 ASA/Comair pay, but at the bottom of the list for bidding. The money would not be as good as what they had at Delta, but it's a job if they haven't found something else to do in the mean time. THEN, as Delta needs to recall their furloughs, those Delta pilots go back to whatever they can hold as Delta recalls them. THEN, when all the Delta furloughs are back, and the status quo is resumed, ASA and Comair guys should be able to move to mainline aircraft as vacancies become available.

This brings up two issues sure to displease many. The senior ASA and Comair guys may want date of hire seniority rather than a staple. I can't blame them, but not realistic, and a staple is better than what they have now as far as being able to move up to bigger aircraft and more pay. I would suggest they keep the DOH seniority they already have and exercise for pass privleges, etc.

What about the F/A-18 jet jock who traditionally goes straight to mainline rather than an RJ? Since I'm the CEO today and can do what I want, I'd say put him in the RJ as an F/O. But, since that is not the culture we're dealing with, I guess I don't have a problem saying he can go to the junior seat in an 88 or 737. Most military pilots will have 10 years of service before they can get out (at least in the Marine Corps) - so I can see some sort of equivalent being worked out - such as 1 year after getting winged in the military equals 1 year at ASA/Comair, or perhaps equals one year of commercial flying for an airline or corporate flight department/fractional). Therefore, the guy leaving the military with 10 or 11 years of service can get hired into whatever an ASA/Comair guy with 10 or 11 years could hold. Not perfect - I'm open to ideas. That would continue to stifle movement upward by the ASA/Comair guys...so there isn't any easy solution here.

OK, I guess my day as CEO is ending. I turn it back over to Gerry and company. Let me get my fire-retardent suit on first.

Fly safe. Aloha, a hui ho.

 

[dtfl]

ok

Ok PLEASE STOP THIS DCI vs MAILINE ok!?!?!
This post if for roadshow info only. If people want to argue about flow throughs, regional jets, etc - please do it on another thread!

 

[General Lee]

I wouldn't mind a Comair/ASA staple on the bottom of the Delta list, and I think the 70 seat RJ is a great place to start for some military F/A-18 wonder boy. The CR7 is a very advanced airplane, and almost as big as a DC-9. I would rather have those guys and those planes on our list. They just can't expect to pull their 20 years of seniority at Comair over to being an immediate 737-800 Capt at Delta. That don't float. If we could get past that, then it would be a nice deal---if it would ever happen.




Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I wouldn't mind a Comair/ASA staple on the bottom of the Delta list, and I think the 70 seat RJ is a great place to start for some military F/A-18 wonder boy. The CR7 is a very advanced airplane, and almost as big as a DC-9. I would rather have those guys and those planes on our list. They just can't expect to pull their 20 years of seniority at Comair over to being an immediate 737-800 Capt at Delta. That don't float. If we could get past that, then it would be a nice deal---if it would ever happen.




Bye Bye--General Lee

I agree. I am sure there is a win-win situation somewhere in there.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

They just can't expect to pull their 20 years of seniority at Comair over to being an immediate 737-800 Capt at Delta. That don't float. If we could get past that, then it would be a nice deal---if it would ever happen.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, I agree with you. But cmon, anything that would get CALPA and DALPA to be happy with each other, or would make pilots happy, is for SURE not going to be approved by management. They feel that anything that will make pilots happy must be costing them $$$$. It's all about the CONTROL.

 

[dtfl]

Now that this is a separate thread.....

I can see a combined seniority list. But one post above mentions that - then mentions furloughees coming into DCI at the bottom? That doesn't make sense to me. American's plan was to have furloughees flow down to the left seat of an RJ - don't think that worked. If you go with the attitude that mailine is momma and the connection carriers are the kids I can see that logic - you displace from the 73-800 to the md88 to the 73-200 to the RJ.
But I realize most connection guys wont like that - I can see both sides.
An integration, in the long run, would benefit the pilots of both companies...but in the short term there would be some upset folks.

Second thought - my personal opinion is to maintain two sep companies. But if the RJs become part of mainline....there will be some problems...either the RJ salaries have to go UP or the mainline salaries will go down....I think the salaries should increase and decrease on a linear scale - the 70 seat below the 73-200 - on a linear scale. Remember the consternation at the EMB190 pay rates at JB?!??!?!?!

Third edit - gotta say I disagree with the F18 anecdote. The guy spends 10 years flying an F18 to go to first year pay on an RJ? Sorry, but 10 years getting shot at does not equal 10 years of flying to mins in an RJ. Flame me if you want - it's true. And yes..I spent lots o' my years getting shot at - so I would say my sorties were more CRM intensive than anything I ever did at Delta. That being said if you mean hire the guy at 10 year pay? Ok...but then what is his line #? Probation at 10 year pay? If you give him 10 years of seniority - he would be able to bid right out of an RJ..so why not hire him right into mainline? Not being an a&& just pointing out issues.

 

[sweptback]

This is all speculation, and nothing like this would ever happen. That being said, here's my two cents.

For anything like this to work (and I would support a staple as described above), there needs to be no "shortcut" for newhires, military or whatever. If you want to get hired at the "new" Delta, you go to the bottom of the list. If that means spending 3 years "paying your dues" slinging the gear of the RJ before you can bid out of it, so be it. After all, what's the point of one list if you have guys coming ahead of you that are technically junior to you, flying larger equipment that equates to more money?

However, nothing like this would work because of the payscales. Say after this was all done the Comair payscale was agreed upon for the RJ (also would never happen, but I digress). Your career progression (based solely on earning potential) would go something like this

RJ FO
RJ Captain
732 FO (or whatever the junior mainline airplane is)
and so on and so forth until you can hold 732 CA or whatever.

But what would be the point of bidding RJ captain other than pay? After all, getting PIC turbine time would mean nothing as you're already "hired" at mainline, right? Especially since 5th year mainline anything FO pays much better than 5th year RJ captain. It would be a weird system, and one that would probably not work.

While it would be nice for both sides to have one list, I don't see it ever happening.

 

[CitationMan]

But what would be the point of bidding RJ captain other than pay? After all, getting PIC turbine time would mean nothing as you're already "hired" at mainline, right? Especially since 5th year mainline anything FO pays much better than 5th year RJ captain. It would be a weird system, and one that would probably not work.

While it would be nice for both sides to have one list, I don't see it ever happening.

In the above system, what about hiring street captains into the RJ if no one wanted to bid it? I'd definately be interested in being a Delta RJ street captain, even if I could make more as a NB F/O.

 

[Tomct]

I agree that this would be the best way to go. Yeah...I know that there will be some feelings hurt and I don't think an F-18 guy should shoot above anyone else. He does'nt know CRAP about flying the line. I appreciate all that he did in the military, but that means nothing here in the civilian world of aviation.
Plus, what is the problem with starting in the RJ. It is more "State-of-the-Art" than most of mainlines fleet!! Sorry guys, but it is! The General is right! To protect everyone at all three companies there needs to be one list...I know...it is one big pipe dream that management would never allow to happen.
dtfl: There would have to be something worked out with the furloughee's, I don't think that there is anything wrong with putting them at the bottom of the list until their recall date! That would only be fair! Once their number came up, they would jump right back to where they were before that "terrible" day! Atleast they would be flying and keeping in the loop with all that is going on in the industry. I have flown with many furloughee's and they are top notch guys.
Well it was nice but I don't think that we will ever see anything like this happening here at Big D! It would give the pilots too much bargaining power!
Fly Safe!!

 

[Russ]

With respect to hiring, I believe DAL could give a hoot anymore who crews the plane as long as they are there to fly it at departure time. Delta or any other airline is not in the business of providing jobs to retirees. The whole F18 guy should get in at x amount of years while the RJ guy is in at Y amount is hardly worth discussion. The market will determine if either has a job and the starting pay scale, not your pedigree.

"gotta say I disagree with the F18 anecdote. The guy spends 10 years flying an F18 to go to first year pay on an RJ? Sorry, but 10 years getting shot at does not equal 10 years of flying to mins in an RJ"

From one vet (Marine,ground) and a guy who's also been shot at by the bad guys, thanks for your service. My question is why do you think you should rate to come to a new job at anything above where a new hire should get? No doubt you were a credit to the service but notionally your in the civilian world now and starting over. If I spend 10 years on an intergrated seniority list I would be rather torqued if someone from another employer/military signed on and received the same level of pay and privileges I did. I don't think I'm out of line expecting this given that we work in a seniority based system that rewards longevity at your current employer only.

 

[doh]

Seems to me that you would have to let the Delta guys bid for any new training that they could hold. If we are stapled to the bottom of the list (which I support in the manner that the General says) Then a fence only protects me in my current position. All new bids have to be in seniority order, so the 150 new CR7's and their subsequent training openings have to be filled in seniority order (ie by Delta pilots first).

 

[bladeusa]

I agree that this would be the best way to go. Yeah...I know that there will be some feelings hurt and I don't think an F-18 guy should shoot above anyone else. He does'nt know CRAP about flying the line. I appreciate all that he did in the military, but that means nothing here in the civilian world of aviation.

Maybe we should hire this ACE =)

Jet Fires at N.J. School During Training
By WAYNE PARRY
Associated Press Writer
LITTLE EGG HARBOR, N.J. (AP) -- The target was an object on the ground well within the confines of the Warren Grove firing range, a 2,400-acre scrub pine expanse used by the military to train pilots in bombing and strafing techniques.
But when the heavy gun in the left wing of an Air National Guard F-16 fighter jet fired Wednesday night, it sent 25 rounds of 20mm ammunition smashing through the roof and zinging off the asphalt parking lot of the Little Egg Harbor Intermediate School 3 1/2 miles from the range.
Military investigators are trying to determine how it could have happened.
A custodian was the only person in the school when the shots hit at 11 p.m., and no one was injured.

The jet that fired the rounds was assigned to the 113th Wing of the District of Columbia Air National Guard, based at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. It returned there after the shots were fired, an Air National Guard spokesman said.
Military officials would not identify the pilot. Operations were suspended at the firing range pending completion of the investigation.
Police were called after the custodian heard what sounded like someone running across the roof.
Police Chief Mark Siino said officers who responded noticed punctures in the roof. Ceiling tiles had fallen into classrooms, and there were scratch marks in the asphalt outside.

The pilot of the single-seat jet was supposed to fire at a ground target on the firing range 3 1/2 miles from the school, said Col. Brian Webster, commander of the 177th Fighter Wing of the New Jersey Air National Guard, which is responsible for the range.
The plane was flying at 7,000 feet when the rounds were fired from the M61-A1 Vulcan cannon in the plane's left wing. The weapon fires 2-inch-long lead projectiles that do not explode, Webster said.
Webster said he did not know what caused the gun to fire.
"The National Guard takes this situation very seriously," said Lt. Col. Roberta Niedt, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Military and Veterans Affairs. "The safety of our people and the surrounding communities are our foremost concern."
Mike Dupuis, president of the township's Board of Education, said school workers are mindful that the firing range is nearby.
"Being so close to the range, that's always in the back of our minds. It is very scary. I have children in that school and relatives that work there," he said.
Schools in New Jersey were closed Thursday because of a teachers convention.
The Warren Grove range, about 30 miles north of Atlantic City, has been used by the military since the end of World War II, long before the surrounding area was developed.
In 2002, an Air National Guard F-16 that had been practicing at the range crashed along the Garden State Parkway. The plane's pilot ejected safely, and no one on the ground was hurt.
Errant practice bombs were blamed for forest fires that burned more than 11,000 acres of the Pine Barrens near the range in 1999 and more than 1,600 acres in 2002.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote from dtfl:
"Third edit - gotta say I disagree with the F18 anecdote. The guy spends 10 years flying an F18 to go to first year pay on an RJ? Sorry, but 10 years getting shot at does not equal 10 years of flying to mins in an RJ. "




How does 10 years of service in the military entitle somebody to a particular job (or any job for that matter) on the "outside" in the civilian world????

 

[Realyman]

It doesn't. The ONLY reason military folk think they can fly so great is because that is what they are told!!!

You can't tell someone they are just mediocre and send them off to war and expect to win, they have to always tell them how great they are.

BTW-You Delta folk that want to flow or come to ASA/Comair better have a lot of RJ time or forget it!!!! Winglet time too!!!! FMS, CF34 time!!!! Bling Bling time!!!

 

[DLslug]

Just staple it and forget it!

Gentlemen:


First, let's forget about the F-18 crap. This has nothing to do with airline flying except that will be your past and flying experience prior to getting hired. When you apply for a new job, you start at day 1 pay and seniority, period!

For all this discussion, I feel that one list of pilots is the only way to go in the future as discribed many times before, staple job with some fences. This is the only way to really sort out "scope" and it will be a dead issue with management from that point on.

Therefore, the airlines could buy whatever aircraft is necessary without repurcussions and restrcitions on pilot contracts. To make this work, DCI pay has to come up. If we are doing the company a favor and removing restrictions on the choice of aircraft, DCI pay should reflect that.

I know, not everyone will agree so flame if you want, but I want to take this out of the hands of management and let us decide as a group our own future.

All for now,

DLslug

 

[701EV]

DLslug,

Ditto!

701EV

 

[CF34-3B1]

Gentlemen:


First, let's forget about the F-18 crap. This has nothing to do with airline flying except that will be your past and flying experience prior to getting hired. When you apply for a new job, you start at day 1 pay and seniority, period!

For all this discussion, I feel that one list of pilots is the only way to go in the future as discribed many times before, staple job with some fences. This is the only way to really sort out "scope" and it will be a dead issue with management from that point on.

Therefore, the airlines could buy whatever aircraft is necessary without repurcussions and restrcitions on pilot contracts. To make this work, DCI pay has to come up. If we are doing the company a favor and removing restrictions on the choice of aircraft, DCI pay should reflect that.

I know, not everyone will agree so flame if you want, but I want to take this out of the hands of management and let us decide as a group our own future.

All for now,

DLslug

Yeah, what he said.

 

[General Lee]

DLslug for President! (of......something...)



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wms]

quote from dtfl:
"Third edit - gotta say I disagree with the F18 anecdote. The guy spends 10 years flying an F18 to go to first year pay on an RJ? Sorry, but 10 years getting shot at does not equal 10 years of flying to mins in an RJ. "




How does 10 years of service in the military entitle somebody to a particular job (or any job for that matter) on the "outside" in the civilian world????

There are already plenty of military guys at ASA & CA without a staple. Why should one list change the process for future military guys. In one day I flew with a hurricane hunter, a marine F18 guy training for an AF F15 slot and an AF F16 guy, as my FOs. I used to be enlisted and there was no heart burn or awkwardness, we had a great time. There are pilots at all airlines with all backgrounds. We all have strengths and weaknesses and none should receive favoritism over another because of the career track we chose. If there is a staple then the process has to be the same for everyone.

 

[wms]

Gentlemen:


First, let's forget about the F-18 crap. This has nothing to do with airline flying except that will be your past and flying experience prior to getting hired. When you apply for a new job, you start at day 1 pay and seniority, period!

For all this discussion, I feel that one list of pilots is the only way to go in the future as discribed many times before, staple job with some fences. This is the only way to really sort out "scope" and it will be a dead issue with management from that point on.

Therefore, the airlines could buy whatever aircraft is necessary without repurcussions and restrcitions on pilot contracts. To make this work, DCI pay has to come up. If we are doing the company a favor and removing restrictions on the choice of aircraft, DCI pay should reflect that.

I know, not everyone will agree so flame if you want, but I want to take this out of the hands of management and let us decide as a group our own future.

All for now,

DLslug

Yeah, what he said.

I posted the above before I read this. Big Ditto!