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Delta/DALPA update

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General Lee

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Joined
Aug 24, 2002
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AP
Delta Pilots Union Defends Contract
Friday March 17, 1:56 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer
Delta Pilots Union Defends Contract Against Rejection That Could Bring Long-Term Pay, Benefit Cuts

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The pilots union of Delta Air Lines Inc. sought to show Friday that flying a commercial plane with the lives of hundreds of passengers at stake is a stressful, time-consuming and heavily regulated job that requires a lot of training and professionalism and -- ultimately -- good pay.


Union lawyers called several retired Delta pilots to testify before an arbitration panel that will decide whether to allow the nation's third-largest carrier to void its pilot contract and impose up to $325 million in long-term pay and benefit cuts. The union says it will strike if its contract is thrown out.

One of the retired pilots, Kim Welch, said he didn't take a certain prescription cholesterol medication because federal regulations could have prevented him from flying. He said he took a nonprescription medication instead.

"That is very typical for an airline pilot," Welch told the panel.

Another retired Delta pilot, Dennis Dolan, testified about his two tours in Vietnam as a Marine fighter pilot and how they shaped his ability to focus on the task at hand.

In a statement, Atlanta-based Delta said its pilots' commitment to their work isn't the issue, but rather what the company needs to keep running.

"For Delta to successfully restructure and become a viable company, all of its costs need to be competitive, including its pilot labor costs, which are today among the highest in the industry," the airline said.

But Welch also testified that when the union agreed to a bankruptcy protection letter and gave up $1 billion in annual concessions in 2004, the union understood that if Delta filed for Chapter 11 and wanted to reject its contract and seek more concessions it would first have to meet a specific financial test.

Even if it met that test, Delta would then only be able to seek an amount of concessions necessary to overcome a financial shortfall, Welch said.

"They did not have open-ended access to our contract," Welch -- a former union official -- said he advised pilots in 2004.

Delta has argued that its pilots union is mischaracterizing what the bankruptcy protection letter means. The company argues that the letter allows it to seek a long-term remedy to its financial problems.

Delta filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection from its creditors in September 2005.

The pilots have offered a second round of long-term cuts, but disagree on the amount Delta says it needs. The pilots believe they should receive some credit for the savings they say the company will reap if it terminates the pilots' defined benefit pension plan.

In the latest negotiating proposals, the company has agreed to reduce its request to $305 million in cuts annually, while the union said it is offering $140 million annually.

On Thursday, Delta's chief financial officer, Edward Bastian, said in an interview the airline won't budge on its latest concessions offer, but would be willing to discuss pilot pension concerns.

The airline had asked the bankruptcy court in November to void the pilot contract. Shortly before a judge was set to issue a decision, the company and its pilots reached a deal on interim pay cuts.

That deal, equal to a little less than half of what the company is seeking on an annual basis, would be replaced by the long-term deal the two sides have been negotiating since December. They missed a March 1 deadline to settle on their own, sending the matter to arbitration.

A second week of hearings in Washington will occur next week.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
One of the interesting tactic taken by our management team in this hearing was to change the standard of measurement normally used to define pilot cost. Instead of comparing pilot costs as a function of CASM, which they used in the original 1113 motion, management now wants to use pilot costs as a function of block hours. Why you ask, because than management can argue that a Delta 777 captain makes more/ block hour than an Airtran 717 pilot. This is most likely the result of DAL pilot CASM dropping down to near the original published goal management argued they needed in front of judge Beatty of .82cents/seat mile. Back in Sept, pilot costs were just north of that "targetted" goal, but management had conveniently forgotten about the estimated $200M in savings attributed to shifting to PBS. Now in March, those savings are realized, and management wants to change the goal line once again to suit their interests.
 
Tomct said:
:cool:Good Luck GUYS! Give Em HELL!!

Glad to have your support.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Wrong approach?

One of the retired pilots, Kim Welch, said he didn't take a certain prescription cholesterol medication because federal regulations could have prevented him from flying. He said he took a nonprescription medication instead.

"That is very typical for an airline pilot," Welch told the panel.

Another retired Delta pilot, Dennis Dolan, testified about his two tours in Vietnam as a Marine fighter pilot and how they shaped his ability to focus on the task at hand.


I am not really sure how this approach will help your cause. This can be said about any lower paying profession. It sounds more like a last ditch effort for some lawyers that have run out of ideas. I would hope the arbitrators will focus on the amount of money that management is getting as well as determining the actual validity of pilot wage decreases. If the company cant specifically prove that they will stay in the red without the pay cuts, then the arbitrator should rule in favor of the pilots with at least a compromise. It is not as if DALPA hasn't been stepping up to the plate with the last two rounds of cuts. I hope they can hold on to most of what they have now or at least agree to a means to recover those losses in the future. If Delta folds, the whole industry will be hurt.
 
Tim47SIP said:
One of the retired pilots, Kim Welch, said he didn't take a certain prescription cholesterol medication because federal regulations could have prevented him from flying. He said he took a nonprescription medication instead.

"That is very typical for an airline pilot," Welch told the panel.

Another retired Delta pilot, Dennis Dolan, testified about his two tours in Vietnam as a Marine fighter pilot and how they shaped his ability to focus on the task at hand.


I am not really sure how this approach will help your cause. This can be said about any lower paying profession. It sounds more like a last ditch effort for some lawyers that have run out of ideas. I would hope the arbitrators will focus on the amount of money that management is getting as well as determining the actual validity of pilot wage decreases. If the company cant specifically prove that they will stay in the red without the pay cuts, then the arbitrator should rule in favor of the pilots with at least a compromise. It is not as if DALPA hasn't been stepping up to the plate with the last two rounds of cuts. I hope they can hold on to most of what they have now or at least agree to a means to recover those losses in the future. If Delta folds, the whole industry will be hurt.

I think they are trying to cover the bases Tim. You can't assume the arbitrators "know" this testimony, so a lot of it is probably fairly dry. Our DALPA attorney had a lot of good exchanges with management witnesses over the last two days, and many focused on scope. One question dealt with Delta pilots ever flying planes with less than 100 seats, and the DL management person said he had no idea. (DC-9-10s, DC7s, F227s, DC-4s, DC-3s, Convairs, C-46s, etc) I am sure we can find a fair wage for the company and the pilots to fly less than 100 seaters again. I won't vote YES otherwise.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
From what I unterstand the board can only vote yes or no on wheter to throw out our contact. The company has said they will not negotiate so we will not get a deal. The board does not want to make this decision. A no vote means strike. Burn the place down.

Mike
 
Tim47SIP said:
I am not really sure how this approach will help your cause.

I don't really think it will either, but some might. Whether or not a DAL pilot was once a fighter pilot in Vietnam really isn't germane, however the issue of disability and medication is, since the company is also going after the Disability and Survivor fund as well as sick leave.

At the end of the day, I believe, it will be about whether or not the Bankruptcy Protection Letter is still valid and if so, does the company have a "liquidity shortfall" as described in the letter, and if they do, are the modifications to the PWA consistent with the limitations placed on a second bite of the apple.

If the BPL is no longer valid, then it probably boils down to the balance of equities favoring either denial of the motion or rejection of the contract. JMHO.
 
Hardcorr said:
From what I unterstand the board can only vote yes or no on wheter to throw out our contact. The company has said they will not negotiate so we will not get a deal. The board does not want to make this decision. A no vote means strike. Burn the place down.

Mike

Mike,

We will see what the creditors say to G(J)erry after we start to strike. This is worth a lot of money to the creditors, to say the least. But, we will show resolve and see what they do next. If it burns down, then that is the way it goes.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Is there anyway the arbitrators can cherry pick sections to throw out or is this a yes or no to the whole contract?

And for the record I'm with Tomct, give em Hell!
 
Willy21 said:
Is there anyway the arbitrators can cherry pick sections to throw out or is this a yes or no to the whole contract?

And for the record I'm with Tomct, give em Hell!


from what I understand, it's an all or nothing decision.
 
Lending my support!

Hello to all you Delta guys (and for that matter NW as well)!

Just wanted to let you know that I wish the best for you all and hope for the sake of our profession that DALPA stands firm facing this tremendous battle with your management.

My prayers are with you!
 
WolfManPack said:
My prayers are with you!

Really? I might pray for someone with a cancerous brain tumor, but I don't think I'd pray for the Delta pilots. I will support them and hope a good outcome but I won't go to God over something like this. With so many truly terrible things in the world, with so many people fighting terrible disease and living under tyrannies such as those in North Korean labor camps or political prisoners in Cube sentenced to 15 years for simply writing an anti-Castro article, to pray over this issue is a misplaced valuation and use of religion in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Really? I might pray for someone with a cancerous brain tumor, but I don't think I'd pray for the Delta pilots. I will support them and hope a good outcome but I won't go to God over something like this. With so many truly terrible things in the world, with so many people fighting terrible disease and living under tyrannies such as those in North Korean labor camps or political prisoners in Cube sentenced to 15 years for simply writing an anti-Castro article, to pray over this issue is a misplaced valuation and use of religion in my opinion.

Mach 80-

You might let God decide that!
 
Mach 80 said:
Really? I might pray for someone with a cancerous brain tumor, but I don't think I'd pray for the Delta pilots. I will support them and hope a good outcome but I won't go to God over something like this. With so many truly terrible things in the world, with so many people fighting terrible disease and living under tyrannies such as those in North Korean labor camps or political prisoners in Cube sentenced to 15 years for simply writing an anti-Castro article, to pray over this issue is a misplaced valuation and use of religion in my opinion.

Interesting, our country was founded by individuals escaping religious and political persecution. Yet after enjoying the freedom you enjoy today, how could you possibly tell people WHAT to pray for?

If these issues are so important to you, why are you not in the peace corps fighting these evils that plague the world?

Loco
 
Mach 80 said:
Really? I might pray for someone with a cancerous brain tumor, but I don't think I'd pray for the Delta pilots. I will support them and hope a good outcome but I won't go to God over something like this. With so many truly terrible things in the world, with so many people fighting terrible disease and living under tyrannies such as those in North Korean labor camps or political prisoners in Cube sentenced to 15 years for simply writing an anti-Castro article, to pray over this issue is a misplaced valuation and use of religion in my opinion.

Don't take things so literally. Could you be a bit more dramatic?
 
Hey General:

Hey General Lee, I may have this wrong, but didn't Delta report an 'extra' $400 million from last year that they had not expected? And also an 'extra' $25 million from January this year??

If this is correct, then I can't see any validity to Delta's claim of needing the $305+ million per year in pilot pay concessions, do you??

It would be interesting to have the Delta and NW backruptcy judges both tell the companies that they can't sell tickets under their cost anymore. I'd bet that within about two weeks ALL ticket prices would rise to a similar level, and ALL airlines with similar CASM would be in the black. An airline industry running in the black, wouldn't that be nice.

I know all the arguments about supply and demand, but I'd rather see 70-80% load factors at a 20-30% higher fare than 90%+ loads at break-even or slight loss fares. But I'm not an MBA either, so what do I know??

Hope this works out for everyone,
B6Guy
 
General Lee said:
I think they are trying to cover the bases Tim. You can't assume the arbitrators "know" this testimony, so a lot of it is probably fairly dry. Our DALPA attorney had a lot of good exchanges with management witnesses over the last two days, and many focused on scope. One question dealt with Delta pilots ever flying planes with less than 100 seats, and the DL management person said he had no idea. (DC-9-10s, DC7s, F227s, DC-4s, DC-3s, Convairs, C-46s, etc) I am sure we can find a fair wage for the company and the pilots to fly less than 100 seaters again. I won't vote YES otherwise.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Now you are talking! All the Delta flying done by Delata pilots! You have no idea how much behind that I am! Go get 'em General! Go get 'em!
 
Mach 80 said:
Really? I might pray for someone with a cancerous brain tumor, but I don't think I'd pray for the Delta pilots. I will support them and hope a good outcome but I won't go to God over something like this. With so many truly terrible things in the world, with so many people fighting terrible disease and living under tyrannies such as those in North Korean labor camps or political prisoners in Cube sentenced to 15 years for simply writing an anti-Castro article, to pray over this issue is a misplaced valuation and use of religion in my opinion.

So God has made you the "filter" as to what people can pray about. How about the Delta pilot with a family to feed, medical bills to pay, etc, etc, and facing the possibility of loosing his job. Guess he shouldn't ask for a little help or guidance from above according to you. I say let him, and everyone who chooses to, pray for what they believe they need to pray for and let God sort it out. Actually I think I'll pray for you Mach 80... sounds like you need a little compassion.:rolleyes:
 
well thats a first I think. A thread that started as a pretty interesting read about DALPA and a pending strike has been hijacked into a heated argument over religion.

Good work boys. Oh look... it's raining toads outside.
 
WolfManPack said:
Hello to all you Delta guys (and for that matter NW as well)!

Just wanted to let you know that I wish the best for you all and hope for the sake of our profession that DALPA stands firm facing this tremendous battle with your management.

My prayers are with you!

Ditto...personal friend of Doug Taylor so I'm pullin for ya General Lee & all DL pilots. Stand tall,stand strong!!!
 
Well since we are talking prayer, how about some of you praying for me to win the lottery. Thanks and God Bless.
 
"Still, struggling carriers continue to slash labor costs. Bankrupt Delta Air Lines, for example, is laying off thousands as part of its restructuring. Experts say joblessness abounds and compensation is down significantly as airlines struggle to keep costs in check."

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/060319/airlines_jobs.html?.v=1

Any word on furloughs? Thought they were pretty safe due to the huge retirement numbers they posted before BK.
 

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