Delta Bankruptcy Here it Comes

[Spooky 1]

Meanwhile Smith Barney downgraded Delta's stock from "hold" to "cash out, and put it all on red"

Gee, I wonder if this is the same Smith Barney who put me in Enron and World Comm?

 

[~~~^~~~]

You sound too excited about this.

I love how these commuter airline pilots get so giddy at the thought of a major airline going down the tubes.

Let the whole industry go down the tubes, I really don't care anymore.

Not excited, but perhaps you detect a little "I told you so" coming from the ranks of the improperly represented regional pilots.

ALPA takes scope from 105 seats to 50 seats, with grandfathered 70 seaters, while signing a contract increasing pilot costs to take every penny (and then some) of Delta's most profitable year ever during the internet bubble. The predictable result, bankruptcy.

ALPA refuses all attempts to recognize Delta's operational integration, denies regional pilots any scope or access to the party controlling the flying. The predictable result, an alter ego race for the bottom with flying going to the lowest bidder in the portfolio.

Now we watch mainline replacement flying on E170's and E190's going to non - ALPA contract carriers. We are not giddy. We are so sick of what the mainline MEC has bargained for (we were not allowed to participate, remember) that we figure it is appropriate that the mainline guys get what they bargained for. We tried to tell you, we tried to work through ALPA's channels and when all else failed we organised and filed a lawsuit seeking to correct the union's stupid scope strategy.

In ALPA's fervor to lock out the 70 & 90 seat RJ's, all they did is to chase the airplane off the property to non union alter ego's. Now the Delta boys can chase the jobs over to CHQ / Republic, Mid Atlantic, Freedom or whaever alter meaningless ego label they put on the next generation of 737, A318/320 and MD narrow body flying.

The regional guys are not responsible for the race to the bottom. We never got to negotiate scope. The mainline MEC's created this destruction to our industry and those chickens are coming home to roost.

Hold another big budget MEC meeting and see if there are any other ways you can come up with to use our "regional" careers as bargaining capital to prop up your career expections, however unrealistic they may be. While your MEC uses contingency funds to drink $160 bottles of Single Malt we will be getting hired at the airlines replacing you on routes as fast as they can get airplanes.

I'm not giddy. This $ucks. But, the Delta MEC is seeing the results of its own bargaining - why are you not angry at them? Oh I forgot, we regional pilots are responsible for everything (even agreements we were completely locked out of) and major pilots are innocent victims of circumstance.

 

[General Lee]

I am so glad that Fins saw 9-11 coming and didn't tell anyone. He also saw the internet bubble, and probably cashed in. Look at your inability to scope yourself in any of your contracts (ASA and the recent Comair contract). None of you saw that coming, did you? That was only National ALPA's fault? Comair got a pretty good pay raise (now frozen), but never thought scope was important. OOOOps.

And, nobody knows where those future 90 or 100 seaters will go. We do believe the 737-200s will be gone, and we were told the MD88s will go in 2012 or 2011---thanks to the recent interior and bathroom overhauls. And, thanks to the recent retirement of 2000 Captains, not as many will leave from the bottom, heck, we are so short now it is ridiculous. And, more may go on September 1st. The only thing we know as an almost certain possibility is that ASA and Comair have a good chance of being sold, with ASA most likely going to SkyWest, and Comair maybe going to the likes of Mesa. The integration of those airlines will be interesting also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Russ]

Anyone who's been around aviation for a while or is simply a nuanced observer knows that airline life is cyclic. DAL would be in the same problem with or without 9/11. Economy was heading south on 9/10.
I predict after the industry climbs out of this hole, that it will fall into another in a decade or so. Does that rock your world General? I have ESPN, I know these things.

 

[General Lee]

Anyone who's been around aviation for a while or is simply a nuanced observer knows that airline life is cyclic. DAL would be in the same problem with or without 9/11. Economy was heading south on 9/10.
I predict after the industry climbs out of this hole, that it will fall into another in a decade or so. Does that rock your world General? I have ESPN, I know these things.

Give me a break Russ. Would things have "Crashed" so fast? We litterally stopped all airline flying for almost a week, and then nobody flew for a month. That is what really killed us from the start. So, that would have happened with the economy too? I am sure the econoomy would have started downhill, but people wouldn't have stopped flying so fast, and planes parked overnight. Come on now. We would have had more time to put plans together, not park planes overnight. 9-11 wasn't in the cycle.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Not excited, but perhaps you detect a little "I told you so" coming from the ranks of the improperly represented regional pilots.

ALPA takes scope from 105 seats to 50 seats, with grandfathered 70 seaters, while signing a contract increasing pilot costs to take every penny (and then some) of Delta's most profitable year ever during the internet bubble. The predictable result, bankruptcy.

ALPA refuses all attempts to recognize Delta's operational integration, denies regional pilots any scope or access to the party controlling the flying. The predictable result, an alter ego race for the bottom with flying going to the lowest bidder in the portfolio.

Now we watch mainline replacement flying on E170's and E190's going to non - ALPA contract carriers. We are not giddy. We are so sick of what the mainline MEC has bargained for (we were not allowed to participate, remember) that we figure it is appropriate that the mainline guys get what they bargained for. We tried to tell you, we tried to work through ALPA's channels and when all else failed we organised and filed a lawsuit seeking to correct the union's stupid scope strategy.

In ALPA's fervor to lock out the 70 & 90 seat RJ's, all they did is to chase the airplane off the property to non union alter ego's. Now the Delta boys can chase the jobs over to CHQ / Republic, Mid Atlantic, Freedom or whaever alter meaningless ego label they put on the next generation of 737, A318/320 and MD narrow body flying.

The regional guys are not responsible for the race to the bottom. We never got to negotiate scope. The mainline MEC's created this destruction to our industry and those chickens are coming home to roost.

Hold another big budget MEC meeting and see if there are any other ways you can come up with to use our "regional" careers as bargaining capital to prop up your career expections, however unrealistic they may be. While your MEC uses contingency funds to drink $160 bottles of Single Malt we will be getting hired at the airlines replacing you on routes as fast as they can get airplanes.

I'm not giddy. This $ucks. But, the Delta MEC is seeing the results of its own bargaining - why are you not angry at them? Oh I forgot, we regional pilots are responsible for everything (even agreements we were completely locked out of) and major pilots are innocent victims of circumstance.

Well, I must only respond in kind. Speaking of I-told-you-so, where are all of the profits from the rjs? It was these same regional pilots, mainly the rjdc types, who were going around screaming that Delta needed more, not less, of these POS. Without getting into the argument of whether or not these a/c are junk, don't bother because I have flown them and I know, why has the largest rj fleet in the world not staved of these trying times?

You only have to look as far as Southwest and Independence Air in order to see what RJs do for the company, namely raise costs. They are expensive, and no longer attract the revenue premium.

I heard it all through the ranks of Delta Connection. It didn't matter if it was Comair or ASA, they wanted larger jets, for less than linear increases in pay. They wanted to "outbid" mainline. Except a few-myself included. Hence the screen-name that everyone just loves to play conspiracy theory with.

The true beauty is that management wanted the rjs partially as a way of lowering compensation bars throughout the industry by stating that the aircraft was not profitable under mainline agreements. What a load of crap, and the regional pilots bought it hook, line, and sinker. Of course, they were not all to blame as books were creatively kept singular, expenses parlayed as necessary to "prop" up the regionals. Fee-for-departure agreements, minimum guarantees for regional feed, etc: they are all crap. The true beauty of this is that when you try and relay this information with your fellow pilots, they ridicule you and call you a mainline kiss-ass. Well, guess who is crying now. So to my former fellow Connectionites, remember all of this when you are sold, stapled, and given paycuts to Skywest and Mesa. In the words of your exalted shark-boy, "I told you so."

Glad to be gone

 

[rgd]

But at least everytime I open my mouth, I'm not excited and giddy about a major airline going out of business. You guys need to realize and learn who buttering your bread. Delta goes, you go. And probably straight to Mesa.[/QUOTE

Bankruptcy is not going out of business. You need to go read more before you spew.

 

[bvt1151]

It's an excuse for airline managements to extract as much from the pilots and others as possible. If they really wanted to avoid bankruptcy, they would raise fares.

Oh my God! Somebody call Grinstein quick. All they have to do is raise fares, and nobody told him. I can't believe a bunch of MBA's with over 1,000 years collective experience in the airline industry couldn't come up with the answer of all answers that a 5-35 year airplane driver could.

Or could it be that passenger demand in the East Coast and Southeast is far to elastic to raise fares?

There's a reason we don't run airlines.

 

[bvt1151]

Well, I must only respond in kind
...
Glad to be gone

Is this guy serious?

 

[jehtplane]

Well, I must only respond in kind. Speaking of I-told-you-so, where are all of the profits from the rjs? It was these same regional pilots, mainly the rjdc types, who were going around screaming that Delta needed more, not less, of these POS. Without getting into the argument of whether or not these a/c are junk, don't bother because I have flown them and I know, why has the largest rj fleet in the world not staved of these trying times?

You only have to look as far as Southwest and Independence Air in order to see what RJs do for the company, namely raise costs. They are expensive, and no longer attract the revenue premium.

I heard it all through the ranks of Delta Connection. It didn't matter if it was Comair or ASA, they wanted larger jets, for less than linear increases in pay. They wanted to "outbid" mainline. Except a few-myself included. Hence the screen-name that everyone just loves to play conspiracy theory with.

The true beauty is that management wanted the rjs partially as a way of lowering compensation bars throughout the industry by stating that the aircraft was not profitable under mainline agreements. What a load of crap, and the regional pilots bought it hook, line, and sinker. Of course, they were not all to blame as books were creatively kept singular, expenses parlayed as necessary to "prop" up the regionals. Fee-for-departure agreements, minimum guarantees for regional feed, etc: they are all crap. The true beauty of this is that when you try and relay this information with your fellow pilots, they ridicule you and call you a mainline kiss-ass. Well, guess who is crying now. So to my former fellow Connectionites, remember all of this when you are sold, stapled, and given paycuts to Skywest and Mesa. In the words of your exalted shark-boy, "I told you so."

Glad to be gone

Ok your a dumbass!!!!!!!!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Oh my God! Somebody call Grinstein quick. All they have to do is raise fares, and nobody told him. I can't believe a bunch of MBA's with over 1,000 years collective experience in the airline industry couldn't come up with the answer of all answers that a 5-35 year airplane driver could.

Or could it be that passenger demand in the East Coast and Southeast is far to elastic to raise fares?

There's a reason we don't run airlines.

You're failing to see my point. The mainline managers know they will make money again. They know they have Chapter 11 protection. Why not get ALL they can from the employee groups before they decide it's time to really get down to business. You show your age and nievety by thinking the best of the best are running the airlines. They're mostly a bunch of recycled mediocre MBA students thrown around from falied airline to another, while extracting millions in pension guratees. Wake up man, you are your own worst enemy. Purdue dosen't usually produce such suckers.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am so glad that Fins saw 9-11 coming and didn't tell anyone. He also saw the internet bubble, and probably cashed in. Look at your inability to scope yourself in any of your contracts (ASA and the recent Comair contract). None of you saw that coming, did you? That was only National ALPA's fault?

Bye Bye--General Lee

While it was called the "internet bubble" much of the business had to do with fear of the year 2000 roll over and all of the tech types flying all over to install fixes. And yes, I did sell some stock in January 2000. I also did predict Delta's bankruptcy when the bullet points for contract 2000 came out. Is there any way to search those posts? I was off by a year on the date, but then again, I did not see the AmEx deal, or GE Capital's help.

As far as scope goes, ALPA National did in fact block our attempts at gaining scope. Here are the links to the letters:

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

My next prediction is that the airline that already has the 100 seat fleet type on the property (in the 70 seat variation) will fly it. Further, mainline Delta guys will attempt J4J at Jet Blue rates once they start seeing the deck slip beneath the waves. You probably see this one coming also and I can't blame you for being angry at Blue for a variety of reasons.

Unfortunately all the unpleasantness while Delta squanders around in Bankruptcy Court is going to negatively effect my AAI shares, but I'm holding to prices over $30 a share evenutally. I bought at $2.85 or so and bought more at $10.40.

 

[regionaltard]

Look at your inability to scope yourself in any of your contracts (ASA and the recent Comair contract). None of you saw that coming, did you? That was only National ALPA's fault? Comair got a pretty good pay raise (now frozen), but never thought scope was important. OOOOps.


Bye Bye--General Lee

*5,125*

You'd do well to spend less time writing and more time reading. Even someone who goes through life in a Kool-Aid induced haze should be at least dimly aware of how the DCI carriers were stripped of Scope.

 

[bvt1151]

You're failing to see my point. The mainline managers know they will make money again. They know they have Chapter 11 protection. Why not get ALL they can from the employee groups before they decide it's time to really get down to business. You show your age and nievety by thinking the best of the best are running the airlines. They're mostly a bunch of recycled mediocre MBA students thrown around from falied airline to another, while extracting millions in pension guratees. Wake up man, you are your own worst enemy. Purdue dosen't usually produce such suckers.

From what I've heard, USAirways, Northwest, United, Delta, ATA, Independence, and Midwest all said they could make money, but they just want to screw of the pilots first...particularly this Oakum guy, whoever that is.

Is it so far-fetched to assume that airlines are entering bankruptcy for reasons beyond us? Granted, its easiest to reduce our pay to reduce costs, but there's a whole lot more to this industry than your view from the cockpit. Fuel prices, 10-year-old leasing agreements, and most of all, overcapacity are all larger factors than management's desire to destroy the lives of all pilots.

It's histerical to think I've been accused of being naive by a person who's very next sentence is that airline management are "mostly a bunch of recycled mediocre MBA students..." Did you know all it takes to become an airline pilot is $40-grand and a few weeks in Florida? When it comes to running an airline, I'd put my money on the mediocre MBA students.

 

[theo]

It's an excuse for airline managements to extract as much from the pilots and others as possible. If they really wanted to avoid bankruptcy, they would raise fares. It is informal collusion between all the managements, and as soon as they have what they want- wham- they're raising fares, and making money. The pilots won't see what they lost for many years. ALPA should strike now. All of us. Peace out-

You are joking, right? Just dont see how Southwest, Jet Blue, Air Tran collude with any legacy carrier.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You are joking, right? Just dont see how Southwest, Jet Blue, Air Tran collude with any legacy carrier.

Yeah, they're making money, but only because they don't have the overhead of the legacys. Trim costs in bankruptcy, and shazam, they'll have similar costs.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Did you know all it takes to become an airline pilot is $40-grand and a few weeks in Florida?

Yeah, you got it. Was it my sunburn in the picture that gave it away???

 

[theo]

Yeah, they're making money, but only because they don't have the overhead of the legacys. Trim costs in bankruptcy, and shazam, they'll have similar costs.

So you agree bankruptcy is a way to make legacy carriers competitive. Not a collusion to screw the employees?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

So you agree bankruptcy is a way to make legacy carriers competitive. Not a collusion to screw the employees?

Yeah, you got it. The easiest method, and certainly the one that requires the least capital expenditure, it to take the pay of pilots, mechs, and F/A's. Look at UsAir, and United. They proposition the bankruptcy judges to gut the union contracts, and its done! Easy as that. Now how do we all wind up in this management shangra-la? Well, don't raise ticket prices, and you can be there too. And any executive can take his or her "retention" bonus, and retire in Florida. That's the school of management I'm talking about...

 

[theo]

Yeah, you got it. The easiest method, and certainly the one that requires the least capital expenditure, it to take the pay of pilots, mechs, and F/A's. Look at UsAir, and United. They proposition the bankruptcy judges to gut the union contracts, and its done! Easy as that. Now how do we all wind up in this management shangra-la? Well, don't raise ticket prices, and you can be there too. And any executive can take his or her "retention" bonus, and retire in Florida. That's the school of management I'm talking about...

?????? you lost me?????