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Delta and DFW---the possibilities

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General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
D/FW braces for Delta restructuring




08:17 AM CDT on Tuesday, August 17, 2004


By SUZANNE MARTA and ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News



For the second time in 15 months, Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport officials are assessing the potential damage of a major airline bankruptcy.

This time it's not the airport's No. 1 tenant, Fort Worth-based American Airlines Inc., which teetered on the brink in April 2003.

Instead, it's Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc., which says it needs to radically lower costs to survive. In a filing last week with federal regulators, Delta said it is plowing through cash faster than anticipated and could be forced into bankruptcy.

Some industry experts say that as Delta's fourth-largest base, D/FW operations are likely to be shrunk from a full-fledged "hub" into a second-tier "focus" city for the airline.

That prospect wasn't at stake when American flirted with bankruptcy last year. American wasn't about to change its largest and most profitable hub.

But a massive restructuring of Delta – in or out of bankruptcy – could drastically change airport operations, not to mention airfares and how North Texans fly.

It could also mean layoffs and the elimination of more flight crew bases here. Delta has more than 4,000 employees in North Texas, down from 6,400 a decade ago.

Delta's restructuring plan will be presented Wednesday to its board of directors. The carrier isn't commenting further, said Peggy Estes, an airline spokeswoman.

Business travelers are watching for Delta's next move.

Despite its smaller presence at D/FW, Delta offers direct flights to many destinations at competitive prices to market dominator American.

If that were to change, there's only one thing Tom Niesen could do. "I will switch to American," said the owner of Dallas-based Acuity Training Systems Inc., who flies almost every week.

Mr. Niesen prefers Delta's customer service. But he has already started booking American more frequently in the last year as Delta replaced many large planes with smaller regional jets.

Others won't make the switch so readily.

Fran Bartlett, who travels every week in her role as owner of Dallas-based Federal Liaison Services Inc., said she'd base more of her flying out of Tampa, Fla., where she has a second home, to stay with Delta.

"They're just much better than everyone else for customer service," Ms. Bartlett said.

Chuck Bauer, a Carrollton-based public speaking and training consultant, worries that prices on some routes would climb significantly if Delta stopped competing directly with American.

"If Delta went away, I'd start looking at Southwest for more flights because of their pricing," Mr. Bauer said.

Delta would probably continue to serve numerous destinations, said Robert W. Mann, an airline consultant who watches D/FW closely. He said if Delta keeps at least four to six flights a day on key routes, it could maintain enough of a network at D/FW to keep its most loyal fliers.

"There's just too much money on the table for Delta at D/FW to walk away from," Mr. Mann said. He expects Delta to trim its hub here to look a lot like American in St. Louis.

Last November, American cut its money-losing St. Louis schedule in half, substituted regional jets for larger "mainline" aircraft and changed the schedule to target local traffic instead of connecting passengers. The carrier has been pleased with the results, which have turned the hub profitable.

The fact that Delta isn't the largest carrier at D/FW could also offer the carrier an opportunity to "live under American's fare umbrella" for travelers who want options.

In just about every market, the top carrier "is absolutely reviled by some people," Mr. Mann said.


Less of a presence

Delta's presence at D/FW has steadily declined from 13 years ago, when it flew nearly 35 percent of all airplane seats. Today, its share has been halved and continues to drop as American expands and low-fare AirTran Airways and others add service here.

Most traditional carriers are retrenching to their strongest hubs, Mr. Mann said, by using more of their larger jets to fight low-fare competitors. Delta may shift large jets from D/FW to the East Coast, leaving D/FW customers to be served by Delta Connection partners.

Delta has already fiddled with its D/FW schedule. In January 2003, it reconfigured the hub to have far more regional jets and increased daily flights on several routes. The results improved D/FW's financial performance, though airline officials have recently said that "more work" has to be done here.

"It's difficult to say if they'll ever make money there in the long run," said Jon Ash of Global Aviation Associates in Washington, D.C. In the late 1990s, his firm helped Delta design a strategy to use more small jets at D/FW.

Unless Delta can lower what it pays to its regional jet partners for the flying they do at D/FW, the hub may never become profitable, Mr. Ash said.

The key is luring more local travelers instead of depending on folks making connections here, he said. Airlines want more local traffic because it's more profitable. About one-third of Delta's D/FW passengers begin or end their trip here.

Some industry consultants think Delta will fly more point-to-point routes – much like low-cost Southwest Airlines Co. – and focus less on connecting passengers.

D/FW Airport board chairman Max Wells is among those worried about Delta's future here. The carrier is D/FW's second largest, but it operates a larger hub in Salt Lake City in addition to its main hubs in Atlanta and Cincinnati.

"Delta is Salt Lake's only hub airline, so what wouldn't they do to keep them?" Mr. Wells said, adding that D/FW may not have the same kind of flexibility because of its commitments to its No. 1 carrier, American.

And airport officials recognize that under bankruptcy, the Atlanta carrier's options would be severe. "They're going to cut with an ax, not a knife," Mr. Wells said.


Working together

Delta's move could affect D/FW's huge bond portfolio, though it is unsure how much. Airport officials, who last month secured the last portion of financing needed to complete the airport's $2.71 billion expansion, have hired consultants to help analyze what the airport can do as Delta considers restructuring plans. That includes emphasizing D/FW's local market (which is on pace to supply a record 23 million passengers this year) and suggesting routes that might offer attractive passenger demand and airfares.

"We're trying to make sure we can do anything in our power to continue to assist them," said Kevin Cox, the airport's chief operating officer. "We're confident that Delta Air Lines can be a profitable airline at D/FW."

Delta could abandon scores of gates that the airport could be hard-pressed to fill, given the industrywide turmoil.

The airline operates 28 gates at D/FW, comprising most of Terminal E and a satellite operation. Those gates are under "exclusive use" leases, meaning the airport couldn't shift another airline into the space unless Delta agrees. Bankruptcy proceedings could prolong that process.

D/FW has been attempting to cut operating costs and to maximize non-aviation revenue to offset the impact of the airlines' woes.

"That's not to say there wouldn't be negative impact, but it would mostly fall on American's shoulders," said Kurt Forsgren, an airports analyst with Standard & Poor's.


'Bankruptcy watch'

D/FW officials are not alone. Their counterparts at Delta's No. 3 hub – Salt Lake City International Airport – are also on "bankruptcy watch."

Still, officials there don't expect to see any major changes from their largest carrier. About 47 percent of the Delta's Salt Lake City passengers at the airport are local.

The carrier already reduced its service in February, replacing several large "mainline" planes with smaller regional jets to focus on that local traffic.

If Delta were to eliminate Salt Lake City as a hub, officials said they would consider consolidating operations and mothballing unused concourse space while they worked to attract new air service. Unlike D/FW, Salt Lake City is a "compensatory" airport, meaning its tenants are charged fees for use, but the airport is responsible for making sure those fees cover its costs. (At D/FW, the major airline tenants hold that responsibility.)

Even if Delta drastically reduced service, the airport is financially well positioned with only $65 million in debt and a cost per enplaned passenger of less than $3, said Tim Campbell, the airport's executive director. He also pointed to growth among low-cost carriers, especially its No. 2 carrier, Dallas-based Southwest.

"We're a big enough market that we think we'll still have a good service pattern," Mr. Campbell said.

E-mail [email protected] and [email protected]




Two parts stood out for me:


1. "If that were to change, there's only one thing Tom Niesen could do. "I will switch to American," said the owner of Dallas-based Acuity Training Systems Inc., who flies almost every week.

Mr. Niesen prefers Delta's customer service. But he has already started booking American more frequently in the last year as Delta replaced many large planes with smaller regional jets."


2."It's difficult to say if they'll ever make money there in the long run," said Jon Ash of Global Aviation Associates in Washington, D.C. In the late 1990s, his firm helped Delta design a strategy to use more small jets at D/FW.

Unless Delta can LOWER what it pays to its regional jet partners for the flying they do at D/FW, the hub may never become profitable, Mr. Ash said."



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Mr. Niesen prefers Delta's customer service. But he has already started booking American more frequently in the last year as Delta replaced many large planes with smaller regional jets.

I said long ago that the RJ would drive customers away when it replaces mainline service. I guess I was right for a change.
 
"It's difficult to say if they'll ever make money there in the long run," said Jon Ash of Global Aviation Associates in Washington, D.C. In the late 1990s, his firm helped Delta design a strategy to use more small jets at D/FW.

Unless Delta can lower what it pays to its regional jet partners for the flying they do at D/FW, the hub may never become profitable, Mr. Ash said.
 
Blame the RJ!

It's the dayum RJs fault again.

They were losing money already with MAINLINE PLANES correct? So they put in the RJ to save the day. This isn't working because people don't like to fly on RJs. I'll agree with that.

SOLUTION: Maybe Delta needs to cut the cost of MAINLINE PLANES so they can BE PROFITABLE in DFW and we can get rid of the dayum RJS. Cutting the cost of those mainline planes would allow MAINLINE Jets to dominate DFW again. They could then compete with AMERICAN AIRLINES AND SOUTHWEST.

I bet AA and SW have nothing to do with why DFW is a losing HUB FOR DELTA:rolleyes:

I hate those stupid RJs. We need to do everything we can to get rid of 'em so we need to cut the costs of those MAINLINE PLANES.;)

Jet
 
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Jetflyer,


I never said that RJs were the total problem---there are a lot of markets that they can try that will probably make money. (Like the newly announced Naples, FL to ATL run---see my other post in Regionals) But, when you go up against mainline sized aircraft (AA in DFW) or LCCs with lower fares (Airtran in ATL and DFW)--it is tough to compete with 50 or 70 seats. DFW has CHOICES when it comes to air travel---and guys like that businessman choose COMFORT. Some people don't care, but some that fly once a week (like that guy) DO CARE. We need passengers that want to fly on us ONCE A WEEK or more.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Jetflyer,


I never said that RJs were the total problem---there are a lot of markets that they can try that will probably make money. (Like the newly announced Naples, FL to ATL run---see my other post in Regionals) But, when you go up against mainline sized aircraft (AA in DFW) or LCCs with lower fares (Airtran in ATL and DFW)--it is tough to compete with 50 or 70 seats. DFW has CHOICES when it comes to air travel---and guys like that businessman choose COMFORT. Some people don't care, but some that fly once a week (like that guy) DO CARE. We need passengers that want to fly on us ONCE A WEEK or more.

Bye Bye--General Lee
DFW has never made money for DL...even when DL had 250 mainline flights a day. DL still lost their shirt. Half empty 727's flying DFW-SHV-MOB don't make money either.

Bottomline, DFW is AA's turf and DAL is WN's turf. There isn't room for DL...no matter what kind of plane you fly there.
 
MedFlyer said:
Bottomline, DFW is AA's turf and DAL is WN's turf. There isn't room for DL...no matter what kind of plane you fly there.
Which might be why the hub is on the chopping block.
 
General Lee,

I was joking and serious in my post. What is the solution?

I honestly agree with you that passengers dislike RJs. They are the new PUDDLE JUMPER and perceived as SMALL AND UNCOMFORTABLE in the passengers' eyes, even if they have equal legroom to some mainline planes.

The RJs must be more profitable to the MAINLINE PLANES in DFW or Delta wouldn't have increased their flying out of DFW.

The solution of lowering the costs of the RJ operators so Delta could make money MAKES NO SENSE. BOOM, let's say the RJ is MAGICALLY cheaper. Now more RJs will be flying and this will ONLY:

REPLACE MORE MAINLINE FLYING AND make more passengers angry because they have to fly an RJ.

So now what happens. DELTA loses more passengers.

I'm just saying that making the RJ cheaper won't work because it will only replace more MAINLINE FLYING which we need MORE OF.

We really need MORE Mainline flying. I REALLY BELIEVE THIS!! But if it's not cost effective because MAINLINE COSTS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE compared to SW in Love, AA which can cut their rates in DFW to drive out Delta, or AirTran will it happen? PROBABLY NOT and cutting RJ operators' costs won't work either.

Jet
 
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How many gates does AirTran have open in ATL for future growth? How many in DFW are available? Do the majors have the ability to block a carrier from obtaining additional gates?
 
Jet,


I know, and after we get our costs in line, something may happen. But, we need to know the plan first, and that will come out shortly. You are correct in your assesment.


Woodpecker,

I don't think they can block people, but they have to maintain a certain number of flights at each gate to keep it. Otherwise, the airport authority will likely give the gate to someone who can bring in more revenue for the airport.(unless they have an "exclusivity agreement" for the gates)


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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28 Gates

"The airline operates 28 gates at D/FW, comprising most of Terminal E and a satellite operation. Those gates are under "exclusive use" leases, meaning the airport couldn't shift another airline into the space unless Delta agrees. Bankruptcy proceedings could prolong that process."

You bet your butt they aren't going to give up those gates. AirTran and Jetblue would be in there in the blink of an eye to scoup them up. Since they can protect the gates in BK, they will hold on to them until they emerge. As a focus city, they will probably hold on to 10-15 gates.
 
Lowecur,


Thank you for already putting us in Chap 11. We are so happy to have you as a "well wisher."

Also, have you been to our DFW terminal? Mainline has about 7-8 gates, and all the rest go to RJs. We even have a "satelite" terminal there we call "Gilligan's Island". Delta left DFW a few years ago in reality.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
It's sad looking

I agree it's very sad looking at TERMINAL E remembering what Delta used to look like in DFW compared to what it looks like now.

Gilligan's Island is completely packed with RJs and now the RJs are stacked up with about three RJs all along most of the main terminal E gates.

Where o' Where have all the MAINLINE JETS gone:(

Jet
 
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Jet,


In reality, it is all from the domino effect. We took 36 mainline 757s from the mainline system and placed them at Song. That really took a huge toll on our Mainline operation. Then, our remaining 738s had to take over some of those old 757 routes, and MD88s had to take over some 738 routes, and our 737-300s had to take over some MD-88 or MD-90 routes (which made us leave Montana out of SLC---giving it to Skywest), and the 737-200s that used to fly at Delta Express were thrown back into Mainline to pick up some scrap routes. That left CR7s to pick up a lot of older 737-200/727/MD-90 routes out of DFW. And, after leaving DFW to CR7s, it will probably close or reduce flights significantly.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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I don't see what the problem is with airlines making money.

Why don't we just raise the current ticket prices on routes like SBA to LGA to approximately 2 weeks pay like in that AA photo:

AROUND $4,500.00-5,000.00+!

I don't see why that would be too difficult to do. Just raise their prices to comparable 1951 rates and they'd be making a profit in no time. We could put to rest all these mumbo jumbo talks of Chapter 11. I should get paid $8 million a year as an airline CEO to come up with these ideas;)

Jet
 
General Lee said:
Lowecur,


Thank you for already putting us in Chap 11. We are so happy to have you as a "well wisher." Come on GL, you know my position. I wish the airline well. We just differ on how it's going to get there.

Also, have you been to our DFW terminal? Mainline has about 7-8 gates, and all the rest go to RJs. We even have a "satelite" terminal there we call "Gilligan's Island". Delta left DFW a few years ago in reality. The only visit I've had to DFW was changing planes with AMR. In looking at the website, I see Gilligan's Island has 9 gates. This should leave you with 19 mainline gates, even if most are used by the RJ's.


Bye Bye--General Lee
.....
 
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robbing peter to pay paul equals the same amount

general,

even if you took the 757s and painted them, those assets were redeployed presumably in a way as to maximize revenue. having said that, is it not the case? were those assets better utilized on some of these unprofitable routes?

why not unload the regionals and bid all your regional flying out? that is the way of the world even if it sux for pilots. we all are in this new LCC model of operating.

finally, i cannot see under any circumstances no matter what industry you're in, to continue to do something( i.e. fly unprofitable routes) that doesn't work.

the 10 billion dollar question is: the new smaller , more profitable delta will require "X" from the pilots to work?
 
General Lee said:
Jetflyer,


I never said that RJs were the total problem---there are a lot of markets that they can try that will probably make money. (Like the newly announced Naples, FL to ATL run---see my other post in Regionals) But, when you go up against mainline sized aircraft (AA in DFW) or LCCs with lower fares (Airtran in ATL and DFW)--it is tough to compete with 50 or 70 seats. DFW has CHOICES when it comes to air travel---and guys like that businessman choose COMFORT. Some people don't care, but some that fly once a week (like that guy) DO CARE. We need passengers that want to fly on us ONCE A WEEK or more.

Bye Bye--General Lee


One pax's opion does not mean "pax don't like the RJ". I have two neighbors that travel weekly. One is a Kroger Eng. and the other a computer , uh, well, not sure what he reallt does though he has explained it, any way, they both love the RJ. They can't travel 1st class much any more and they both say the RJ is lots better than most coach class cabins they have traveled in. They also like the fact that there are no middle seats.
 
Last November, American cut its money-losing St. Louis schedule in half, substituted regional jets for larger "mainline" aircraft and changed the schedule to target local traffic instead of connecting passengers. The carrier has been pleased with the results, which have turned the hub profitable.
Darn RJs
 
I don't know about 04, but in Q403 DFW was DAL's only profitable hub. That was what led to the changes at SLC. DFW may close as a DFW pilot base, but will still remain a presence for DAL as an ASA base and a large operation for ML.
 
General Lee said:
Jet,


In reality, it is all from the domino effect. We took 36 mainline 757s from the mainline system and placed them at Song. That really took a huge toll on our Mainline operation.
Bye Bye--General Lee


What???

I thought Song was the end all be all profitable operation according to most of your posts....

So Song is not more than making up for taking this "huge toll" on the network?
Maybe this is why Grinstein is calling it the Swan Song....?
 
8vate,


Did I ever say that Song was a bad thing? Nope. We just didn't NEED a huge hit on our mainline system. It is too bad we could not have found more used 757s to fill in the gaps. (like the AA 757s that are ex TWA birds currently sitting in the desert with different engines (Pratts vs Rolls)) We parked too many airplanes. The MD-11s did NOT have to be parked, for example, after the Gulf War 2, and our VP of Marketing at the time even admitted "we left money on the table."

As far as Song goes, apparently that "Swan" comment was taken out of context--it originated early on when Grinstein became CEO. If you re-read the Wall ST. Journal article, it states that due to Song's strong financials as of late, it has won time to prove itself. Song is a great product and we are full---I fly those flights all of the time. As far as the fares on Song, I don't really know or control that. The passengers love it.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
general,

you say the song planes are full. that's great! but earlier you said that part of the problem was delta redeployed the 757s which meant 738s had to their routes and mds had to do the 738s. again, a paint job does not a different airline make.

why not redeploy more of the on routes where they'll fly full like song. and quit flying money losers which have burning through 4 million a day?
 
Last November, American cut its money-losing St. Louis schedule in half, substituted regional jets for larger "mainline" aircraft and changed the schedule to target local traffic instead of connecting passengers. The carrier has been pleased with the results, which have turned the hub profitable.
Where did AMR release this information? The only financial information I've seen regarding regional performance was that they generated 505M revenue and 517M operating expenses in the 2nd Qtr 10Q.
 

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