threegreen
Mmmm, I look good.
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DELTA and ASA What will happen?
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"GO AROUND"
Again?!?!?
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General Lee
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GO AROUND said:
Absolutely. ASA would stop flying, and SkyWest would park atleast half of their RJs, or all of the RJs in SLC and all of the DL E120s. A code share to search for will be interesting. This Summer will be full anyway on all of the remaining airlines. No one can just buy up all of the parked DL planes and re-do what we do now in ATL or any hub. Most of the money out there would be used to buy slots at LGA and DCA, and maybe our Delta Shuttle operation. Airtran won't need the feed, they are already full this summer. We could see larger planes flying to ATL from the other airlines hubs (ORD/DEN/IAD-maybe more 757s for UAL etc) , but noone will be able to expand fast enough or bring in enough planes to fill the same number of flights ASA would have filled normally. Also, a lot of the current majors have deals with their regionals to be "exclusive" partners, like COEX or Expressjet. They have until the end of 2006 to be the exclusive feed for CAL. Others probably have similar agreements. I sure hope it doesn't happen, but if we stop flying, ASA and Comair will probably stop too, and SkyWest, Mesa (freedom), and Shuttle America/CHQ would have some huge problems, for awhile. Mesa and Shuttle America would probably hook up more with USAir, who would take charge and fill in for old ASA flights in the SE from CLT. SkyWest would be looking for a partner, and probably wouldn't find one.
Let's hope for a TA that is acceptable to the mainline pilots, with scope that sticks. I won't vote for one otherwise.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee
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Kerveball said:
DAL goes on strike I would plan on a massive furlough. I would plan on all ASA operations to come to a hault. Survive... maybe if that CAL flying comes through the top half of the seniority list may get a call.
I don't see a replacement coming to the ATL. ATL as a hub isn't exactly great. I think a better model will be STL. Whoever is left standing will most likely get a giant hard on and raise ticket fares. If you are for a DAL strike may I suggest hedging your career with stock in every other carrier out there.
General Lee said:
Let's see if I can get this right....
There are about 1800 pilots ea @ ASA and CMR = 3600 pilot jobs
About half of SKYW flies for DL = 900 pilot jobs
About 1/3 of REP fliies for DL (guess) = 500 pilot jobs
MES flies for DL (about) = 300 pilot jobs
If that's in the ball park, about 5,300 regional pilots will lose their jobs because about 6,000 Delta pilots decide to quit their jobs --- all over a difference of 9 seats in the back end of an airplane that Delta pilots don't fly.
In addition another 52,000 non-pilots @ DAL and CMR will lose thier jobs. [I don't know how many at the other regional carriers and I don't know how many others whose jobs result from Delta's presence. It has to be thousands more.]
657 jets (owned or leased by DAL & CMR) will be parked. Many more at the DCI carriers.
178 domestic cities in 46 states served by DAL & CMR will lose service. So will additional cities served by other DCI carriers.
71 International cities in 45 countries will lose DAL service.
Unless the Company immediately gives in to the DAL pilots, it will have to liquidate, thus ending the 3rd largest airline in the US and 76 years of aviation history.
Again --- all of those things will happen because of a difference of 9 seats in the back end of an airplane that Delta pilots don't fly and Delta Air Lines does not operate, and a paper difference of about $130 millions.
Delta's BOD and top executives number about 50 people. Add to that 6000 pilots + -.
Concluslon: There are 6,050 confirmed idiots currently in the employ of Delta Air Lines and their lawyers who are willing to screw up the lives of at least 60,000 fellow workers forever and 8 + million passengers in the 1st month.
Congratulations. That's Brilliant!
Surplus1,
So I suppose it's the pilot's fault DAL is in the position they're in? I suppose you think the FA's at Comair should just give in too? Just because you have flexible hamstrings, doesn't mean everyone else should bend over for those buffoons "running" the show. Let me guess, you think DAL needs to cut everyone's pay except for upper management in order to "keep the management team together" and perhaps draw in more "talent?"
Good luck to everyone at DAL. The pilots are right, management is not just wrong, but immoral, abusive, arrogant and stupid.
-Blucher:angryfire
So I suppose it's the pilot's fault DAL is in the position they're in? I suppose you think the FA's at Comair should just give in too? Just because you have flexible hamstrings, doesn't mean everyone else should bend over for those buffoons "running" the show. Let me guess, you think DAL needs to cut everyone's pay except for upper management in order to "keep the management team together" and perhaps draw in more "talent?"
Good luck to everyone at DAL. The pilots are right, management is not just wrong, but immoral, abusive, arrogant and stupid.
-Blucher:angryfire
General Lee
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surplus1 said:
Sounds like leverage to me. And YES, we will shut this thing down over 9 seats, since it often leads to more and more seats. Next thing you know, we have 8 777s and 1 738, and 1000 large RJs. Nope. My last 767 trip to the Carribbean had a reserve 767 Capt. He stated that without scope he could be bumped too because there are plenty of MD88 Captains and 738 Captains that are senior to him, leaving him exposed as well to a downgrade and another pay cut. If CR9s took over MD88s in the future, more than just lowly FOs would be affected. Everyone here gets it.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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ReportCanoa
I'm fly in any weather
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General Lee
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Blucher said:
Either you don't read very well or you don't understand what you read. No, I don't think its the pilots' fault. I think it's the fault of both management & the pilots.
It's managements' fault for mismanaging the airline. It's the pilots' fault for creating unnecessary conflict. Both are the product of greed.
In this case they're no longer fighting over money, they're fighting over power. That doesn't make sense.
It's OK to be stupid when you are the only one who pays the price of your stupidity. When you affect thousands of people who have nothing to do with your ego trips, that's criminal, and yes, it applies to both sides. Stupidity seems to run in that "family".
This needs to be settled and striking isn't the way to settle it. :uzi:
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701EV
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surplus1 said:
Perhaps you're right, because I'm afraid I don't understand you when you say "It's the pilots' fault for creating unnecessary conflict." To me that statement is about equivalent to someone saying "it's the blacks' fault for creating unnecessary conflict" during the civil rights movement. In short, it's just stupid. But, back to the argument at hand...
On what planet is it acceptable for a management to continue to mis-manage a company so poorly that it loses billions and yet that same management rewards itself for it "efforts?" Oh wait, there's more! Then this same management goes to their work force and demmands pay cuts of up to 51% in addition to flat out eliminating hundreds of jobs. I don't care how much money you make, if you take a 51% pay cut, while your bosses are taking bonuses, that is criminal! I don't know what's in the water up there in the C concourse in CVG, but I guess it's working. Perhaps it's a case of the "Stockholm Syndrome?"
Unfortunately this management (and many others out there) just doesn't seem to get it. They will not listen to reason and therefore have forced the Delta pilots into this position. If there is a strike at Delta it will be 100% management's fault!!!
-Blucher:angryfire
propjockey
Supreme Commander
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I don't think I will ever understand the mentality of militant unionistas who would ruin their careers along with those of tens of thousands of other people in a vain attempt to make a point.
Seriously -- what are some of you people going to do if Delta doesn't exist anymore? I can't believe that there are really all that many Delta pilots (let alone regional pilots who depend on Delta) who have their economic houses in order to the extent that they can weather a lengthy period of unemployment. I see jokes about Wendy's and Home Depot, but I don't think many Delta pilots are thinking clearly. If they were, they would realize they'll need to step into executive-level positions in the corporate world almost right away to even make the house payment, let alone keep the boat.
You regional guys egging the Delta pilots on to a strike must either already have your real estate empires up and running, or perhaps you don't have a family that you're financially responsible for. I'm still recovering from my first furlough after September 11. Despite my efforts, I am not yet financially ready for the upheaval another furlough would cause.
Are executives idiots? Yes! I dare say most are in corporate America. Companies are no longer (if they ever were) led by the best and the brightest, but by the most unscrupulous. I learned that bitter lesson from working in the corporate world for 7 years after graduate school before starting my first flying job. The current struggle at Delta is merely another symptom of all that is wrong with this country. I wish I could believe that putting Delta out of business would actually change anything. I wish I could believe that "showing Delta" would reverse the current downward trend in airline wages. Perhaps then I wouldn't so much dread what many of you are cheering for.
I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this post. I just feel the need to speak out against what I perceive as such a destructionist philosophy.
Executives are always going to take care of themselves! Always, always, always!! You cannot hurt them. Even when you put them in jail they're out in a few months with most of their millions securely tucked away in offshore accounts. Putting Delta under will only hurt you and the ones you love.
Seriously -- what are some of you people going to do if Delta doesn't exist anymore? I can't believe that there are really all that many Delta pilots (let alone regional pilots who depend on Delta) who have their economic houses in order to the extent that they can weather a lengthy period of unemployment. I see jokes about Wendy's and Home Depot, but I don't think many Delta pilots are thinking clearly. If they were, they would realize they'll need to step into executive-level positions in the corporate world almost right away to even make the house payment, let alone keep the boat.
You regional guys egging the Delta pilots on to a strike must either already have your real estate empires up and running, or perhaps you don't have a family that you're financially responsible for. I'm still recovering from my first furlough after September 11. Despite my efforts, I am not yet financially ready for the upheaval another furlough would cause.
Are executives idiots? Yes! I dare say most are in corporate America. Companies are no longer (if they ever were) led by the best and the brightest, but by the most unscrupulous. I learned that bitter lesson from working in the corporate world for 7 years after graduate school before starting my first flying job. The current struggle at Delta is merely another symptom of all that is wrong with this country. I wish I could believe that putting Delta out of business would actually change anything. I wish I could believe that "showing Delta" would reverse the current downward trend in airline wages. Perhaps then I wouldn't so much dread what many of you are cheering for.
I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this post. I just feel the need to speak out against what I perceive as such a destructionist philosophy.
Executives are always going to take care of themselves! Always, always, always!! You cannot hurt them. Even when you put them in jail they're out in a few months with most of their millions securely tucked away in offshore accounts. Putting Delta under will only hurt you and the ones you love.
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~~~^~~~
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CR9's are not going to take over from MD88's. At 86 seats in maximum capacity the CR9 is still half the airplane the MD88 is. The MD88 remains more efficient on a CSM basis.General Lee said:
This is the same RJ / 737 arguement that you used to make before you realized the economic impact that fuel prices have on the RJ. The CR9 is not a MD88 replacement any more than the CR2 was a 737 replacement. Realize that Delta has parked some of Comair's CRJ 200's while your ancient 737-200's are flying until they are completely used up.
ALPA and the Delta MEC still don't understand the RJ's role in the marketplace. Delta should get smart and let us have Dash 8 Q - 400's. The Dash 8 would do most of the same mission for less cost and the Delta pilots would simply see it as a "prop job" and not be willing to sacrifice their Company to try to stop it. The Dash 8 is ramp space constrained because it has a 737 sized footprint and Delta management still equates propellers with E120's. But, a smart management team could promote the Dash as larger, more comfortable, more efficient and less polluting.
Don't worry General, if Delta survives, you will get your Captain slot. If you decide to shut down Delta because the arbitrators ALPA agreed to toss your contract, then you wont. The CRJ900 really does not figure into the deal.
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surplus1 said:
Relax Surplus:
Delta pilots won't strike, they will wimp out at the last minute and cave as every other pilot group has since 9/11! And, even if they can find their balls to strike it will be very brief and DAL, all of it's affiliates and ATL will be just fine. Don't believe all this chest thumping by the few vocal junior DAL FO's, like the General. He has some good information sometimes, but is often full of hot air.
See Ya!
General Lee
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jetfo said:
Junior FO or Junior-to be captain? You got that mixed up, but that's ok. We already have a strike vote that authorizes us to strike IF THE CONTRACT IS THROWN OUT. For those pilots that would cross the picket line, they would be a scab, and that would be short lived because DL would die, but then they would be scabs for the rest of their lives. The wheels are already in motion, and I hope a strike doesn't happen, but it is authorized. Tell me where I am wrong here?
If DL dies, so does ASA, Comair, half of SkyWest, part of CHQ, and part of Mesa. That is the harsh reality, and I hope it doesn't happen and we get a good TA out of this. I think there is a good chance we may get one FRI or SAT, but you never know. If not---we won't work without a contract---that would be worse than working here now, which has gone down hill as of late. Sad but true.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee
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~~~^~~~ said:
I think our current position, which won't change much at all, is that we will allow some more 70 seaters to your fleets. IF you want to put first class seats in them, then go ahead. SkyWest flies CR7s with 3 classes---First, econ plus, and econ(for UAL). They only have 66 seats though, but I bet they are nice. CHQ would probably get some more E170s, and some pax I know really like them. Anything larger can be flown by us, since we have 475 furloughs still out there. IF they are recalled and we still need pilots, I say hire exclusively from ASA and CHQ. There you go fins, your dream of flying bigger planes with a DL logo or flag on the tail will become a reality. We have shrunk by 4000 pilots (10000-4000= 6000) and now have how many RJs? Could we lose more pilots to larger RJs? Oh yea. I won't vote for a TA with scope erosion. I bet over 50.1% won't either, and Lee Moak already stated that mainline will fly planes with more than 70 seats. He can reject any TA before we even get to see it.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Hi GL. Would you care to place a small wager about CRJ-705's or CRJ-900 at DCI?
How about this. If/when DCI announces their intent to fly CRJ-705's or CRJ-900's at a DCI carrier, you agree to stay off of the "Regionals" board for 6 months. Just a little vacation for us at the commuter level.
In return, if a TA is reached where no DCI carrier flies a CRJ-705 or a CRJ-900, I will stay off of the "Majors" board for 6 months.
In either case, the next month or so should be very interesting.
How about this. If/when DCI announces their intent to fly CRJ-705's or CRJ-900's at a DCI carrier, you agree to stay off of the "Regionals" board for 6 months. Just a little vacation for us at the commuter level.
In return, if a TA is reached where no DCI carrier flies a CRJ-705 or a CRJ-900, I will stay off of the "Majors" board for 6 months.
In either case, the next month or so should be very interesting.
General Lee
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anon said:
No actual bets, since I will stay on this board for as long as I want. Heck, if we strike and I lose my job, I will be on this board every dam day. Now what are you wishing for? Anyway, I am sure DCI will want to fly that CRJ705 or CR9, but it will be only with 70 seats. IF that is profitable, I will be surprised. Maybe you can have lie-flat seats too, and actually bring all of the pax luggage.
And yes, this will be a very interesting next week.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee said:
Now there's the General we all know and love. You've got to keep a sense of humor in these trying times.
What do I want? How about some stability. I highly doubt that I'm going to see that for a few years but it's a nice thing to wish for.
Seriously, I have no idea what's going to happen in the next few weeks but it's important that we remember one thing. At the end of the day, it's just a job. No more, no less. If this one goes away, another one will turn up.
Good luck to all of the DAL/ASA/CMR/SKW pilots. We're all in the same mess in one way or another.
Mercyful Fate
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General Lee said:
General
Here is a thought...
Lets say all this works out, no agreement made on scope, yaddaa yaddaa yaddaa..
What would keep Delta from "codesharing" flights with over 70 seats to another carrier? What would keep (insert regional here) from flying say CRJ 900s or ERJ-190s under their own code, and have them operate as a Delta codeshare flight. There is my bet right there to escape the scope clause, and still reap the benefits.
General Lee
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anon said:
I always try ot keep my sense of humor, even in the worst of times. I have built up a long comedy routine actually, and I will be presenting it every Tues and Thurs nights (after the strike) at the Laugh Barn in Dalton, GA--from 10 pm to Midnight. It will be a hit, no doubt. And, that's true, we all want stability. I would also like us to grow eventually and hire again, bringing some DCI pilots onboard if they want. I don't know if that will ever happen though. We really will take a stand here, primarily because flying without a contract will suk, and we already know our pensions are gone. Let's hope for an acceptable TA.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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