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Declaring Minimum Fuel

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satpak77 said:
I continue to raise my eyebrows at pilots who are afraid to declare "min fuel" or even declare an emergency (if indeed a emergency exists) due to their fear of "paperwork" or "visits from the Feds"
I second that, and it's alarming to me how many people I know and talk to that have this same attitude about things.

I always tell them this: "It's a lot better to have to fill out some paperwork when you land, then to have to face the dire consequences of not making it to your destination!" So many accidents could've been avoided if pilots would just speak up sooner, and not be afraid to admit they need help.
 
The system gives pilots several "Outs" when they need them. The first is Part 91.3 that allows you to do what you have to do to MEET an emergency. The reg is open to allow just about anything to keep you alive. Now if you put your self into that emergency by going out side of the regs or policy, well the Judges may not like that. Then there is the famous NASA form. Problems cannot be fixed in a system unless someone tells about the problems.

One comment I like to make to pilots is that they already paid for the ATC services (taxes), why don't you want to use them...?

JAFI
 
I've had to declare min fuel at one point with a student; ATC re-routed us after we had already received our clearance and were halfway through a DP due to another aircraft's emergency. So instead of a quartering headwind on the leg back, we had a direct. ATC even advised us once if we could keep the speed up GS was 48-knots in a C172. :D We were between cloud layers at one point and were passed by cars below on a 65mph highway.

Ended up landing just above minimums, but I reported "min fuel" and got direct IAF, which aided in our fuel preservation.
 
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Actually, I've had a 20 series Lear call tower on the phone to ask about departure delays because if they had to wait more than 5 min for TO, they were gonna be in a minimum fuel situation. The guy wasn't being a jerk at all, just had a long flight and wanted to minimize taxi and hold short time. We worked it out.


All that said, I really don't have a lot of sympathy for Joe Blow who files 800+ mile legs in his Mooney and then gets in a tight with VFR WX everywhere. Heck, AVgas is probably a buck cheaper at some small enroute airport than at PHX anyway. And I've made 15 min "pit stops" lots of times. It's not a big deal.
 
One thing I forgot to mention... I always ask for fuel remaining in TIME. Majority of the time pilots report remaining fuel in pounds, I have no idea what that means.

When declaring anything to do with fuel that is vital info for us...
 
You kiddin me? When were flying into Newark and are holding for awhile we declare minimum fuel a lot of the time. Fu*k the feds. We've never had an issue. Funny thing is.....we have plenty of fuel left! A lot of pilots do this.
 
Lie cheat and steal

Flightjock30 said:
Fu*k the feds. We've never had an issue. Funny thing is.....we have plenty of fuel left! A lot of pilots do this.

Funny.

Nice attitude.

Real professional too.

Flightjock. Is that like a nylon brief with patches and zippers and stuff?
 
Always declare minimum fuel. The reserve is for you, what are you going to do on short final when you have no green light on the gear. Have enough fuel to always go around, that is minimum fuel. Usually around 30 minutes is it.
 
TurboS7 said:
Always declare minimum fuel. The reserve is for you, what are you going to do on short final when you have no green light on the gear. Have enough fuel to always go around, that is minimum fuel. Usually around 30 minutes is it.

uuhh Huh?
 
Our company recommends we declare "min. fuel" if we're going to arrive at the destination--or the alternate--with less than our planned reserve fuel. Personally, I think that's a pretty good rule-of-thumb for everybody.
TurboS7 said:
Have enough fuel to always go around, that is minimum fuel.
Are you kidding? A go-around and landing takes, what? Ten minutes? About 250 pounds (in a CRJ)?

That's not minimum fuel, that's an emergency! :eek:
 
An emergency is when you have a double flame out at 410 and you can't get them re lit. Now you are a glider and you don't have to worry about calling it a fuel emergency. Lear pilots live in one world and commuter pilots live in another I am convinced of that. We used to taxi out on one in the Lear and lite the other when we were cleared into position to hold or takeoff. Saved about 200 to 300 lbs of fuel.
 
mar said:
Flightjock. Is that like a nylon brief with patches and zippers and stuff?
Hahaha...sounds like "commando" version of thong for gay guys...not that there's anything wrong with that. (seinfelt reference)
 
TurboS7 said:
An emergency is when you have a double flame out at 410 and you can't get them re lit. Now you are a glider and you don't have to worry about calling it a fuel emergency. Lear pilots live in one world and commuter pilots live in another I am convinced of that.
So...what are you saying? The Pinnacle accident was caused by fuel exhaustion? :confused:

Are you further saying that regional pilots don't care about fuel?

Please elaborate, because I'm trying to figure out how outraged I should be by this post.
 
When you fly a Lear 20 series Lear you are low on fuel before you even start up. The objective is to land with as much fuel as possible and get the job done. Once you get below 800 lbs it was considered prudent to shut one engine down and transfer the fuel to one tank and land on one. If you had to go around you had plenty of fuel for the one engine. With the advent of fan engines and the twenty series Lear going away all those little tricks aren't needed anymore.


Take the commuter pilot and throw him in that enviroment and he will think we are crazy. Take the Lear Pilot and throw him in the commuter/regional enviorment and he will kill himself and a bunch of people. As a pilot we usually adapt to whatever it takes to complete the task within a safety envelope. Air America pilots operated in X places out of Laos, Cambodia, and other X places, they did crazy things but lost very few pilots due to pilot error/judgement. Hence airlines have produced SOP's to try and standardize the standard. One thing I hate is when pilots start spewing out FAR's, that is BS. FAR's have nothing to do with safety, they are a minimum standard there to protect the US Government from liability. Good procedures and manuals and pilot standardization have everything to do with safety and are very important.So there is nothing wrong with a commuter/regional pilot, when they think of landing they think about the 50 miles of being jacked around at ATL. When a Lear pilot thinks of landing they think about leaving 410 82 miles from destination and not touching the thrust for spoolup until 500 feet BTW that take 300lbs of fuel. Big diffrence. I am an advocate of lot's of fuel and even my airline complains that sometimes I land with too much. I have 173 people behind me, who cares, these beast don't run on air.
 
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TurboS7 said:
Take the commuter pilot and throw him in that enviroment and he will think we are crazy. Take the Lear Pilot and throw him in the commuter/regional enviorment and he will kill himself and a bunch of people.
Yeah, okay, I'll buy that. I will say this: contrary to what you may think, we (most of us) aren't in the habit of burning gas just for the hell of it...especially in this economy! But we're not about to start shutting engines down and making Space Shuttle arrivals, either. (I've learned passengers dislike body angles in excess of ten degrees.)

And Pinnacle crashed because they were flying at 410 at 0.55M and ten or more degrees nose-up, not because they ran out of gas.
 
That is correct. Never go below 210 IAS anytime you are above even 370, beware of the increase in ISA when there is a Southern Jet.
 

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