Declaring Minimum Fuel

[slowto250]

Unless ATC had a problem with what you did the FSDO would normally not get involved. Again, you handled the problem and landed safely, end of story.

Now if you ran out of fuel and did an "off" airport landing, THEN you would be visited from the FSDO.

JAFI

Possibly to pay their last respects.

 

[ATCER]

There is no clear cut answer for this... At the center our procedures are this, A/C declares minimum fuel, controller asks A/C their intentions/request and we alert the supervisor. Every A/C that declares is logged. Majority of the time nothing comes of it. It is a common occurence for traffic from Europe to declare minimum fuel and need to divert due to head winds, most of the time it involves flights from Europe destined places such as MMMX, MMUN, etc. They often declare and divert to MYNN. Sometimes they have to even duck into TXKF if the winds are bad.

On a busy swap night when we're holding for all the NY metros half the planes that are issued holds declare minimums. Any mention of fuel is taken very seriously by ATC...

The only time you would see any trouble from the feds is if a pattern develops. A while back we had a corporate charter from the islands (TNCM) destined somewhere in Virginia declare, we cleared him direct and had to work out transition through hot warning areas with the military. (those of you that are familiar with the east coast know of all the warning areas). IN the following 2 weeks same thing happened 2 more times... the feds did take a look.

Rattler71 said it best... if in doubt declare... don't let the thought of a visit by a fed effect your decision.

 

[JAFI]

ATCER, good post. If a trend develops where an emergency becomes common, then you may have to explain your planning procedures...

The system is there to give you an out if and when proper fuel planning doesn't work. It is much better if you tell ATC any problems you have and ask for assistance than to do a dead stick landing and then do a dance on the carpet in front of the Judge. I can tell you they do not have a sense of humor when it comes to hazarding passengers or any one on the ground.

JAFI

 

[Lead Sled]

much can be aircraft dependent...

for example - 20 series Learjets or other turbojets - a few lengthy low level vectors and you go from IFR reserves to "minimum fuel" pretty quick.

luckily enough, many controllers understand this and are usually pretty helpful.......at least from my experience.

With a 20 series Lear the drill was to top it off, start and taxi out, get airborne, then advise ATC that you had a fuel emergency in progress.

'Sled

 

[FN FAL]

Actually, "minimum fuel" is more of a "heads up" to ATC that you can't take any more delays . . . . or you will then have to declare an emergency.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5-85. MINIMUM FUEL ADVISORY[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a. Pilot --[/font]

1. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Advise ATC of your minimum fuel status when your fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, you cannot accept any undue delay.
   
   [/font]
2. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Be aware this is not an emergency situation, but merely an advisory that indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.
   
   [/font]
3. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Be aware a minimum fuel advisory does not imply a need for traffic priority.
   
   [/font]
4. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If the remaining usable fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a safe landing you should declare an emergency account low fuel and report fuel remaining in minutes. (Reference -- Pilot/Controller Glossary, Fuel Remaining).[/font]

Yes sir!

We had unforcast low ceilings and vis one night at MKE. Down to the RVR. That limited the airport to one runway and there is a rush hour at the airport at that time of night.

After being in a vector conga line for at least 45 minutes, I was placed in a position to almost call fuel min, but the controller called me and told me my next vector was for the downwind for the ILS...number two.

Don't think that this is something a low timer gets him/her self caught up in...during the conga line, airliners were being given hold instructions and as Nogs With Attidudes checked on freq and was told to expect to hold and they went WTF?...they were told they were number 25 in line. So the unforcast conditions caught everbody by surprise...even the big rig 121 guys.

I would have played the min fuel card with no regrets...it was unforcast wx.

 

[User546]

I continue to raise my eyebrows at pilots who are afraid to declare "min fuel" or even declare an emergency (if indeed a emergency exists) due to their fear of "paperwork" or "visits from the Feds"

I second that, and it's alarming to me how many people I know and talk to that have this same attitude about things.

I always tell them this: "It's a lot better to have to fill out some paperwork when you land, then to have to face the dire consequences of not making it to your destination!" So many accidents could've been avoided if pilots would just speak up sooner, and not be afraid to admit they need help.

 

[JAFI]

The system gives pilots several "Outs" when they need them. The first is Part 91.3 that allows you to do what you have to do to MEET an emergency. The reg is open to allow just about anything to keep you alive. Now if you put your self into that emergency by going out side of the regs or policy, well the Judges may not like that. Then there is the famous NASA form. Problems cannot be fixed in a system unless someone tells about the problems.

One comment I like to make to pilots is that they already paid for the ATC services (taxes), why don't you want to use them...?

JAFI

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I've had to declare min fuel at one point with a student; ATC re-routed us after we had already received our clearance and were halfway through a DP due to another aircraft's emergency. So instead of a quartering headwind on the leg back, we had a direct. ATC even advised us once if we could keep the speed up GS was 48-knots in a C172. We were between cloud layers at one point and were passed by cars below on a 65mph highway.

Ended up landing just above minimums, but I reported "min fuel" and got direct IAF, which aided in our fuel preservation.

 

[Vector4fun]

Actually, I've had a 20 series Lear call tower on the phone to ask about departure delays because if they had to wait more than 5 min for TO, they were gonna be in a minimum fuel situation. The guy wasn't being a jerk at all, just had a long flight and wanted to minimize taxi and hold short time. We worked it out.


All that said, I really don't have a lot of sympathy for Joe Blow who files 800+ mile legs in his Mooney and then gets in a tight with VFR WX everywhere. Heck, AVgas is probably a buck cheaper at some small enroute airport than at PHX anyway. And I've made 15 min "pit stops" lots of times. It's not a big deal.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Thanks for the different perspectives on this. It makes a lot more sense to me now.

 

[ATCER]

One thing I forgot to mention... I always ask for fuel remaining in TIME. Majority of the time pilots report remaining fuel in pounds, I have no idea what that means.

When declaring anything to do with fuel that is vital info for us...

 

[Flightjock30]

You kiddin me? When were flying into Newark and are holding for awhile we declare minimum fuel a lot of the time. Fu*k the feds. We've never had an issue. Funny thing is.....we have plenty of fuel left! A lot of pilots do this.

 

[slowto250]

Yes, but isn't that being dishonest ?

 

[mar]

Lie cheat and steal

Fu*k the feds. We've never had an issue. Funny thing is.....we have plenty of fuel left! A lot of pilots do this.

Funny.

Nice attitude.

Real professional too.

Flightjock. Is that like a nylon brief with patches and zippers and stuff?

 

[TurboS7]

Always declare minimum fuel. The reserve is for you, what are you going to do on short final when you have no green light on the gear. Have enough fuel to always go around, that is minimum fuel. Usually around 30 minutes is it.