Declaring in IND?

[Volasl]

Just curious, while landing we overheard this in IND on 7/4. We are declaring an emergency due to not having landing numbers. The pilot then proceeded to give fuel on bx, number of pax etc etc. ATC asked if they needed assistance and the crew said no. They landed and taxied to the gate. Quick turn and they took off again right before us.

Seems very strange that you have no back up paper for not having the acars numbers???? Anyone care to speculate which airline and why?

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Declaring an emergency for not having landing numbers? What's the matter? Couldn't get a hold of thier dispatcher?

Normally I have those numbers before I takeoff.

 

[BoilerUP]

What airline was it?

 

[twinbeech]

IND??? Runways are 7605, 10,000, and 11,200ft long. Somehow I think that no matter what kind of a/c it was that 11,200 would be enough to stop pretty much anything without the need to declare an emergency.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Not to mention that you can probably figure your factored and unfactored landing distance from the performance info in your POH. Something is funny about this story...

 

[trainer8]

Not to mention that you can probably figure your factored and unfactored landing distance from the performance info in your POH. Something is funny about this story...

Just another indication of the low experience levels we are seeing in the regional industry these days. Those numbers are determined prior to TO per 121 regs. Unfactored LDG distance can be used for actual landing based on your actual runway length. The only other possibility is that they had a flap failure of some sort, but their QRH/Emergency procedures would provide runway length guidance/penalty.

Look at it this way. It was a great learning experience and nobody got hurt.

T8

 

[The_Russian]

Just another indication of the low experience levels we are seeing in the regional industry these days. Those numbers are determined prior to TO per 121 regs. Unfactored LDG distance can be used for actual landing based on your actual runway length. The only other possibility is that they had a flap failure of some sort, but their QRH/Emergency procedures would provide runway length guidance/penalty.

Right! There are too many people in this industry that do not demonstrate the knowledge or professionalism to do the job properly.

 

[BoilerUP]

Just another indication of the low experience levels we are seeing in the regional industry these days.

If the FO declared the emergency, I'm sure it was done under guidance from the CAPTAIN. If the CAPTAIN (or FO, for that matter) was too unaware/stupid to realize they could pull out a book and get landing data, then they don't belong in a 121 cockpit. 14/32 is closed at IND, and you should be able to get damn near any airplane stopped in 10,000 of runway.

We still don't know what airline this was!

 

[ReportCanoa]

Who did these clowns belong to? Gayjets, Clownair, Shaniqua, Spinnacle? For the love of God, give yourselves up in the interest of safety of air commerce.

 

[trainer8]

Who did these clowns belong to? Gayjets, Clownair, Shaniqua, Spinnacle? For the love of God, give yourselves up in the interest of safety of air commerce.

I wouldn't regard it as a major safety issue. The PIC was probably a new-hire in this century, his FO in the last year or two. I'm sure he learned from his mistake(s). We all do. He's the better pilot now and can blush and cringe at his mistake. Again, nobody hurt. I would rather him be conservative then do something really stupid. I could count on both of my hands the dumb stuff I've done in an aircraft...or even said over a frequency and lived to tell about it, and look at it and say, "I'll never do that again." Learning experience. Hey, if we had perfect pilots, we wouln't need training departments.

T8

 

[Prop2Jet]

what a panzy, just land ! Declare an emergency... hahaha Next time use your head when something like this happens and or use AIRINC to phone patch yah.

 

[DoinTime]

If the FO declared the emergency, I'm sure it was done under guidance from the CAPTAIN. If the CAPTAIN (or FO, for that matter) was too unaware/stupid to realize they could pull out a book and get landing data, then they don't belong in a 121 cockpit. 14/32 is closed at IND, and you should be able to get dang near any airplane stopped in 10,000 of runway.

We still don't know what airline this was!

If it was a PCL flight they conformed to current company policy on landing with an unknown airport analysis. This issue has nothing to do with landing distance as that can be calculated solely by the flight crew. The issue is single engine obstacle/terrain clearance in the event of a go around (critical engine failing on initiation of the go around).

If this was a diverted flight (which it most likely was) there would be no paper backup in the cockpit and on bad weather days our dispatchers get task saturated up to the point where it becomes impractical to include them as a decision maker. You are essentially on your own. You can make educated guesses on obstacle/terrain clearance but you do not have definitive proof as required by the FAA. Hence the need for the captain to have emergency authority.

If the CAPTAIN (or FO, for that matter) was too unaware/stupid to realize they could pull out a book and get landing data, then they don't belong in a 121 cockpit.

It seems to me if you don't know these basics about part 121 dispatch requirements YOU have no business in a 121 cockpit.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Critical engine?

 

[DoinTime]

Critical engine?

That's a FARism. I am fully aware that the CRJ, in particular, does not have an engine that can be specifically defined as the "critical" engine.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Wouldn't it be an emergency anyhow if an engine failed? Kind of like declaring an emergency in case of an emergency?

 

[180ToTheMarker]

They landed and taxied to the gate. Quick turn and they took off again right before us.

Seems very strange that you have no back up paper for not having the acars numbers???? Anyone care to speculate which airline and why?

They took off right before you, yet you don't know what airline it was?

Interesting 1st post.

 

[BoilerUP]

It seems to me if you don't know these basics about part 121 dispatch requirements YOU have no business in a 121 cockpit.

Relax, Francis. I am aware of "these basics about part 121 dispatch requirements". I suppose I assumed that most AOM/FCMs had landing data charts in them in an instance you didn't have any Aerodata or "numbers" as it were for an intended landing and those could be legally used for landing data. If 9E doesn't have those, then I was mistaken in my assumption...and that wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

PNCL pilots have been very good in helping me get to/from work, and I appreciate the ride everytime. If in fact it was a Pinnacle flight, lets be 100% clear I wasn't bagging on your pilots...

 

[trainer8]

If it was a PCL flight they conformed to current company policy on landing with an unknown airport analysis. This issue has nothing to do with landing distance as that can be calculated solely by the flight crew. The issue is single engine obstacle/terrain clearance in the event of a go around (critical engine failing on initiation of the go around).

If this was a diverted flight (which it most likely was) there would be no paper backup in the cockpit and on bad weather days our dispatchers get task saturated up to the point where it becomes impractical to include them as a decision maker. You are essentially on your own. You can make educated guesses on obstacle/terrain clearance but you do not have definitive proof as required by the FAA. Hence the need for the captain to have emergency authority.

It seems to me if you don't know these basics about part 121 dispatch requirements YOU have no business in a 121 cockpit.

Agreed. It appears this PIC actually did the right thing if he diverted and could not communicate with his dispatcher. In the case of a diversion to an airport not in the flight release and the PIC cannot communicate with the dispatcher, it is appropriate to declare an emergency, as the dispatcher no longer has contact with his flight and they are landing at an airport not specified in the flight release. I've been wrong before, but if my memory serves me correctly, no 121 carrier can dispatch an turbojet aircraft unless it can be shown that it can land at a destination or alternate airport within 60% of the available runway (dry) and 115% (wet). Diversions are alternates and the dispatcher has to know for planning purposes.

T8

 

[FN FAL]

The issue is single engine obstacle/terrain clearance in the event of a go around (critical engine failing on initiation of the go around).

So what's the point of that, how could declaring an emergency affect the outcome if they puked one and had to go around? Besides, the quicky mart is open 24 hours a day, they'll have plenty of wieners, buns and marshmallows on hand. You might have to wait patiently in line, but they got plenty in stock.

 

[ReportCanoa]

So what's the point of that, how could declaring an emergency affect the outcome if they puked one and had to go around? Besides, the quicky mart is open 24 hours a day, they'll have plenty of wieners, buns and marshmallows on hand. You might have to wait patiently in line, but they got plenty in stock.

You're giving the fire trucks a head-start if you declare early.

 

[Motive Flow]

The "declaring an emergency" had nothing to do with real world flying. The flight crew most likely knew they had more than enough runway.
They were just "dotting the i's and crossing the t's" with regards to not having runway & S.E. go around performance. Just another CYA procedure in case you come under the microscope of some trigger-happy fed.
Still pretty silly though when you try to apply common sense to the situation.

 

[Volasl]

I know exactly which airline it was. My point was asking before i rushed into making a judegment. I dont know if it was a diversion or not? I do know they did about a 35 minute turn and went back out. I was on final ahead of them and took off behind them.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

I know exactly which airline it was. My point was asking before i rushed into making a judegment. I dont know if it was a diversion or not? I do know they did about a 35 minute turn and went back out. I was on final ahead of them and took off behind them.

Sorry, I got confused by you asking folks to speculate which airline. I figured you didn't know.

 

[trainer8]

The "declaring an emergency" had nothing to do with real world flying. The flight crew most likely knew they had more than enough runway.
They were just "dotting the i's and crossing the t's" with regards to not having runway & S.E. go around performance. Just another CYA procedure in case you come under the microscope of some trigger-happy fed.
Still pretty silly though when you try to apply common sense to the situation.

Perhaps it seems silly, but, with your certificate on the line, what would you do. "Catch 22" for the crew. a) They say nothing and their POI investigates an unscheduled landing by ATC, they have go do a carpet dance with the CP, POI and the IND FSDO and possible certificate action. b) Declare an emergency because you need to land at the nearest suitable while unable to have comm with you dispatcher and you fill out an ASAP, a NASA form, and talk to the CP on the phone. Choose your poison.

I think this Captain did the right thing. I respect his decision and retract what I said about his experience level. (tips hat)

T8