De-frost the tail before takeoff?

[YaMama]

Hey y'all,

Clear and frosty this morning - I get to the airport and see a couple guys rubbing towels on a jet's wings (Citation maybe?) to get the frost off I guess ... couple minutes later I see 'em start up and head out, and it sure looks like there's frost still on the horizontal stab, plus I sure didn't see anybody up on what would have to be a *tall* ladder taking it off ...

This is an airport with some regional airline traffic, so I guess they must have de-icing equipment somewhere, though I've never seen it ... and I guess it's possible the CJ got de-iced somewhere I didn't see .. but in that case why would they have bothered with the wings?

So I'm assuming they took off with the frost still on the tail - just wondering ... is this safe? Do you do it? What do you do about getting de-iced at the podunk airports, when you have to leave the plane out overnight?

 

[vossdr1]

frosty the tailplane

I don't fly a Citation and I don't know about the company in question's policy. However, keep in mind that on most airplanes, the horizontal stab. provides lift down (opposite the wings) to provide an aerodynamic stabilization against a cg forward of the center of lift. So, the most critical area of the surface is the leading edge and the bottom. Frost does not usually form on the bottom.

$0.02

 

[ruhroa]

well i dont know about anyone else but if there is frost on the wings its on the fusalage(sp) elevators and tail ............... i would be getting it de iced there is a good ntsb report about a cl604 crew that was in england that got frost on the aircraft and they are no longer with us...............you ask about podunk airports its real simple if you cant get a hanger or deiced you move the aircraft or you sit it out till it clears off...............................

 

[Snakum]

On frosty mornings the 135 company at a small airport where I used to fly would always hit the leading edges and tops of the wings and stabilizers with a plastic hand-held Ag-type pressure sprayer with alcohol (glycol?) on all their Citations and King Airs before a trip. I always wondered about the frost on the fuselage, and I figured it must not have been important. They've been in business since Christ was a baby and have an excellent reputation (nice folks too) so I'd always assumed the fuselage just didn't need to be squirted. Is it common to hit the lifting surfaces only on smaller aircraft?

Just curious ...

Minh

 

[Xdriver]

On the CE-750 its one large tail section. I wait untill it melts or we get de-iced. Last winter at signature MSP with mod snow "after" the ramp guys said they were done. I decided to do a quick look at the tail from outside. The entire tail section had not been done but they said it had been. Keep it CLEAN including frost!!!

 

[skyking1976]

On most any aircraft glycol is applied primarily to the aerodynamically critical areas of the aircraft (i.e. wings, tail). If you look at any Part 121 deice training manual the emphasis for glycol application has always been the wings and tail. Usually when the fuselage is deiced it is because of heavy snow build-up that will either add excessive weight or will be a aerodynamic hinderance.

Frost, however, is another creature. In some Pt. 135 Ops Specs I have seen where frost is allowed on the wings and tail as long as it is polished smooth. If anyone has seen a "frost buffer" please let me know because I have always seen people just get the thing deiced. On other larger aircraft such as the DC-9, fuel frost (on the underside of the wing) may be allowed up to 1/4 inch.

Most airlines will subscribe to the "clean aircraft concept" theory. No ice or frost. Period.

Sky "Iceman" King

 

[na265]

Speaking of icing. We just got a CD ROM from Sporty's on icing. It is very good. It's only 5 bucks, a small price for good info. No, I don't work for Sporty's.

 

[AA717driver]

I'll go a little further... My former company said the fuselage must be clean, too. Ice and snow can come off and get in the tail-mounted engines. Frost was treated like ice and snow.TC

 

[Flying Illini]

Frost often times gets overlooked. Frost is just as dangerous! My company subscribes to the clean a/c policy. No ice, snow, OR frost (no matter how light).

 

[avpro91]

Just after reading this the other day, sure enough, went out to the a/c at 6am to a mild case of fuzzy stuff. Our ops spoec also subscribe to the clean a/c policy. Without a working deice truck and no time to get in a hangar, had to scrape as much as i could for 5 min or so and then light up. Not that I"m saying it's allright to fly with frost on the a/c, and for sure not a heavy coat, but if your only alternative is waiting for warmth (which may be days away) or taking off with a slight dusting which will be gone by 3000 feet, we made it to our destination just fine. However, the fbo got an earfull for ont having a working truck and if there was or they could have gotten it in the hanger, I would have departed a few minutes late to do so. Always better to make sure its clean.

 

[taloft]

14 CFR 135.227

(a) (1) Takeoffs may be made with frost adhering to the wings, or stabilizing or control surfaces, if the frost has been polished to make it smooth.

paragraph (b) mentions going through the required training of 14 CFR 135.341 when taking off into icing conditions.

 

[Flying Illini]

I've never tried to polish frost but it would seem that with all that rubbing to polish it, it would just come off. However, I would love to see some guy standing out by his plane with an electric buffer "polishing" the frost!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Clean aircraft is the only way to go.

If the deice truck is broken, dont overnight there.

any questions one should read the CL604 accident mentioned earlier. Will shed some serious light on the effects of a "little frost".

One may take off xxx times and never have a problem. But why take the chance.

 

[Flying Illini]

No deice truck? Put it in a heated hangar (it's cheaper too!). Just be sure to have it there for 5 or 6 hours so that the ice or snow can melt and evaporate. Usually after about 2 hours in the hangar we will go out with towels and towel off as much standing water as we can, just to help the process along. Just remember, a hangar won't always solve the de-ice issue b/c pulling out in snow just means it will melt on contact with your plane and then refreeze as the plane cools. Load pax in the hangar if possible, anything you can do to prevent being in the wx for long periods of time. ADH (ada, OK) is a location that you have to be careful at, no de-ice and usually no hangar space. If we have a trip there and the wx is going to get bad/is bad, we go somewhere else that has de-ice/hangar capabilities.

Snow/ice/frost=BAD
Clean=GOOD
Period.

 

[Timebuilder]

any questions one should read the CL604 accident mentioned earlier. Will shed some serious light on the effects of a "little frost".

Is that the one that was taking off in England and rolled to one side and planted a wing, ending in a firey crash? Wasn't that a charter company in the south?

We always had the lears cleaned of all frost, ice, or snow.

A few years ago, I spent the night in Burlington, VT with a Seneca. In the AM, I found a thick layer of frost on all surfaces. There was no squirt can of glycol, and the truck was too expensive, so I "polished" the frost OFF of the wings, and tail, and made a clean spot on the windshield that allowed for taxi and takeoff. After I was in the air, the windows cleaned up in just a few minutes.

It was like the karate kid: wax on, wax off. Man, were my arms tired. I wasn't taking off with frost on any wing or control surface.