DCI Fall Cutbacks..............

[Rick]

BrownInThePants...........no one wishes to hear your drivel here. Go back to fishing in another thread and leave this one alone.

As I see it, SkyWest will eventually furlough regardless of what ASA does. There is no way they are going to be able to lose the amount of flying they did in Milwaukee and still remain staffed as is. There isn't going to be enough flying to divvy up at the end of this, I'm affaid.

How long before ASA has to meet the cost lock in for our DCI contract?

I think the news about them breaking away from the Midwest deal could make things harder at ASA. My fear is that if we had some opportunities for 20 RJ's it will be taking by INC for those planes first. When I listened to the last conference call it sure seemed that ASA was taking furloughs for the entire company and not just ASA.

 

[viper548]

As I see it, SkyWest will eventually furlough regardless of what ASA does. There is no way they are going to be able to lose the amount of flying they did in Milwaukee and still remain staffed as is. There isn't going to be enough flying to divvy up at the end of this, I'm affaid.

The planes flying for midwest will be placed with United

 

[boctal]

Are you all retarded, a no furlough clause means nothing in the airline industry, NOTHING.

A lawyer and a bunch of selfish senior azzhole's can get around it any day of the week.

I'll take it in the shorts to keep guys on our list at ASA, but I'll bet too many other's won't, not enough real men left in this industry.

Way to resort to insults when none were directed at you. I disagree with you as there is precedent from previous cases in which no furlough clause's were upheld. I would like to hear your reasoning and examples of why you think management would be able to maneuver around this clause (given Inc's current financial status and the precedent set by the courts) without repercussions. Granted, if it does come to that, the grievance process could take awhile, but I'm sure we could all fly a little "safer" during the process. We're on the same team here and if they blatantly violate our contract, it will be up to us to show them that the management love fest is over. Based upon the various comments of folks I've flown with recently, we have more solidarity amongst our ranks than you give credit for.

 

[crj567]

Way to resort to insults when none were directed at you. I disagree with you as there is precedent from previous cases in which no furlough clause's were upheld. I would like to hear your reasoning and examples of why you think management would be able to maneuver around this clause (given Inc's current financial status and the precedent set by the courts) without repercussions. Granted, if it does come to that, the grievance process could take awhile, but I'm sure we could all fly a little "safer" during the process. We're on the same team here and if they blatantly violate our contract, it will be up to us to show them that the management love fest is over. Based upon the various comments of folks I've flown with recently, we have more solidarity amongst our ranks than you give credit for.

Very simple-

Mgmt's trump card is called "bankruptcy." The parent company can account for the subsidiaries any way they wish. Just post all the profits to Skyw and all the losses to ASA and Bammo! One subsidiary is doing great, the other gets their contract thrown right out in bankruptcy-the WHOLE contract! Totally legal!!

-Ain't justice beautiful?

 

[boctal]

Very simple-

Mgmt's trump card is called "bankruptcy." The parent company can account for the subsidiaries any way they wish. Just post all the profits to Skyw and all the losses to ASA and Bammo! One subsidiary is doing great, the other gets their contract thrown right out in bankruptcy-the WHOLE contract! Totally legal!!

-Ain't justice beautiful?

I don't think it's quite that simple. The bankruptcy court would require information on assets, liabilities, current income, expenditures, executory contracts, unexpired leases, and a statement of financial affairs from the subsidiary. The subsidiaries assets and liabilities are indeed combined with the parent, however subsidiaries do their own record keeping, in which case those documents would be required by the bankruptcy court irregardless of the parent company records. By doing what you described (falsifying) it would be borderline corporate fraud and embezzlement by the parent company. This whole scenario doesn't seem remotely feasible to me for a variety of reasons (including Inc.'s contract with Delta), but if you can offer up a legal explanation as to how Inc. could do this legally, then I'll change my tune. Also, if anybody finds fault in my reasoning, feel free to correct me as I am certainly no expert and am only trying to provide my view.

 

[JumpersAway]

I don't think it's quite that simple. The bankruptcy court would require information on assets, liabilities, current income, expenditures, executory contracts, unexpired leases, and a statement of financial affairs from the subsidiary. The subsidiaries assets and liabilities are indeed combined with the parent, however subsidiaries do their own record keeping, in which case those documents would be required by the bankruptcy court irregardless of the parent company records. By doing what you described (falsifying) it would be borderline corporate fraud and embezzlement by the parent company. This whole scenario doesn't seem remotely feasible to me for a variety of reasons (including Inc.'s contract with Delta), but if you can offer up a legal explanation as to how Inc. could do this legally, then I'll change my tune. Also, if anybody finds fault in my reasoning, feel free to correct me as I am certainly no expert and am only trying to provide my view.

I think the theory of running ASA through bankruptcy makes little sense, but it could be done. Just look at MAIR holdings and the debacle with Mesaba and Big Sky a couple of years back. Mesaba was profitable, Big Sky was not, yet Mesaba was the subsidiary that was taken to the cleaners.

 

[crj567]

I think the theory of running ASA through bankruptcy makes little sense, but it could be done. Just look at MAIR holdings and the debacle with Mesaba and Big Sky a couple of years back. Mesaba was profitable, Big Sky was not, yet Mesaba was the subsidiary that was taken to the cleaners.

EXACTLY!

Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant. Fact is-it is legal, and it would work-if that were the goal. The MAIR/BigSky scenario is immoral, evil, and totally horrible, but it is what they can do.-Legally.

 

[boctal]

I think the theory of running ASA through bankruptcy makes little sense, but it could be done. Just look at MAIR holdings and the debacle with Mesaba and Big Sky a couple of years back. Mesaba was profitable, Big Sky was not, yet Mesaba was the subsidiary that was taken to the cleaners.

You bring up an excellent point as I had honestly not remembered Mesaba's past bankruptcy when typing my response. While I admit bankruptcy might be a possible avenue, I still don't think it's feasible or even remotely likely that Inc. would stoop to such measures, when both of their subsidiaries are still profitable, only so they can furlough more than the 55 or so that are not protected. All the while they risk losing their contract with Delta. Which reverts back to the original question, with precedent set in the courts in regard to a no furlough clause, what other avenues might the company pursue to get around it? Considering the remote possibility that Inc. could cause ASA to file for bankruptcy, I still find it extremely unlikely the company will be able to violate the clause and it be upheld without resorting to such extreme measures. I certainly appreciate the civilized discussion and debate. I'm sure we can all agree that hopefully this never comes to pass.

 

[waka]

How is this different from the current generation of regional f/o from the "academies" who have never dealt with real weather , high density ATC or real emergencies, plus the biggest thing they have flown is a seminole. I'd rather have one that at least knows about jet systems and jet handling and can fly at jet speeds.

I'd take somebody that was slumming it in a slow Seminole, Aztec or Beech 18 than some MPL simulator "jet speed" wunderkind any day. It isn't the size or the speed of the airplane, it is the kind of experience that counts. Even with a fast track program 0 to regional guy, if he's got some MEI time, he'd be a much better candidate than someone that's never seen a real airplane....no matter how advanced the simulator.

 

[sperfly]

if you read the no furlough part of the contract it says "the company will not furlough except in circumstances over which the company has no control. The term circumstances over which the company has no control includes but is not limited to......."

so technically the company has no control over how much delta cuts our flying. we are losing 20 planes (maybe next spring). what if delta pulls 100 planes from us. would they still not furlough because of this clause. i believe they can furlough anybody they want right now because they have 'no control' over the block hours that delta gives us. this is all my interpretation and would like to hear any others.

 

[crj567]

if you read the no furlough part of the contract it says "the company will not furlough except in circumstances over which the company has no control. The term circumstances over which the company has no control includes but is not limited to......."

so technically the company has no control over how much delta cuts our flying. we are losing 20 planes (maybe next spring). what if delta pulls 100 planes from us. would they still not furlough because of this clause. i believe they can furlough anybody they want right now because they have 'no control' over the block hours that delta gives us. this is all my interpretation and would like to hear any others.

I don't think that would work... It is true that they have no control over what DAL does, but it is also true that they have complete control over what happens over at SKYW... Furloughing tons of guys at ASA and nobody over at SKYW would probably constitute a violation...
-Let's hope it doesn't happen that way.

 

[Browntothebone]

The solution is simple. Skywest takes ASA into bankruptcy and then they can gut the contract as needed to furlough what they need.

 

[jmreii]

Hmmm, from what I'm willing to bet- 100 More furloughs in the fall, with around 60 displacements.....at ASA.

Any bets from the others such as Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair, etc????

I wouldn't linger on it for too long, more restrictive regulations on your host partners will equal more outsourcing of those services in-order to reduce costs. you will by default,so cheer up.

 

[79%N1]

How can a profitable company be taken into bankrupcy?

 

[Browntothebone]

How can a profitable company be taken into bankrupcy?

Easy, Make it unprofitible! Transfer asets to SKW and bleed ASA too death. Kinda like Lorenzo did with CAL and Eastern.

 

[wmuflyguy]

How can a profitable company be taken into bankrupcy?

Comair was expecting to make a 50 million dollar yearly profit, management even admitted this under oath during the BK and 1113c process. It is all a shell game.

 

[79%N1]

I need to get a new friggin job!!!!

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

How can a profitable company be taken into bankrupcy?

At Mesaba the ALPA lawyer said that you don't have to be insolvent to go bankrupt. When we lost the AVRO's the company convinced the judge that because the profits were not going to meet projections, bankruptcy was the only option.

There are other reasons for a company to go bankrupt. In fact the Government supports bankruptcy. Look at GM. Employees mean nothing.

 

[JumpersAway]

I would have to argue that the new political climate provides a different playing field. I think the sham bankruptcy age is over, especially given that labor seems to have a far better footing now.

 

[sweptback]

We have new bankruptcy rules now. Remember Mesaba and Comair went under the old ones.

It wouldn't be impossible, but it wouldn't be easy either. I don't think it's exactly kosher for the umbrella corporation to finance the subsidiary's exit from bankruptcy, and I don't know where else they'd get financing (outside of RAH of course).

 

[gator_hater]

If they offer you another job that you refuse, say slinging bags at BMI, then could they let you go? I know we don't have the stations that we used to, but we do have a couple.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Speaking of less stations. Mesaba just announced as of Aug 31, DBQ will no longer have service and will close. Another Saab city bites the dust.

 

[Raskal]

I would have to argue that the new political climate provides a different playing field. I think the sham bankruptcy age is over, especially given that labor seems to have a far better footing now.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your statement. Labor is far, far away from any kind of footing other than the one that continues to decline. ALPA, while a great organization, is crumbling under the constant merger battles and scope issues all caused by the lack of a national seniority list. We are about as fragmented and ineffective as any labor group could be (well, except the UAW maybe).

This is by no means an attempt at putting down ALPA, but I believe until there is some sort of national unity we are simply killing our own group. Eventually we'll simply fall apart, much to the delight of management at all the companies.

 

[Speedtape]

Pilots on this forum making expert comments and prognosis on Bankruptcy is about as reliable as predicting whether the ground hog will see his shadow in 2012.

Study Bankruptcy laws before you stick your foot in you mouth! The laws have changed and so has the pro-MGMT Executive Administration.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

ASA to announce a hangar at CAE this week. Why do you think they'd announce that in the midst of DCI cuts? Does know who has hangars at CAE already?

 

[sweptback]

ASA to announce a hangar at CAE this week. Why do you think they'd announce that in the midst of DCI cuts? Does know who has hangars at CAE already?

Mesa did a lot of MX there but I don't know if they had a hangar or not.

But really, who cares? Is it going to change my job any? Probably not.

 

[at7driver]

guess that depends on if your job is polishing the hanger floor..

 

[JumpersAway]

ASA to announce a hangar at CAE this week. Why do you think they'd announce that in the midst of DCI cuts? Does know who has hangars at CAE already?

Is that because the hangar in Baton Rouge now has a hangar door at one end, and a hole at the other?????????????????

 

[COOPERVANE]

I think the theory about SKW declaring bankruptcy in order to furlough a few dozen pilots is laughable.

They are 12 steps ahead of all the airline management experts on this board and will find an EASY way around our ridiculous "no furlough clause" if they need to.

Just because your degree from riddle says Airline management doesn't mean you have a clue.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree that from what I am hearing there are going to be more cutbacks in the fall. Staffing for EV is on shaky ground.
As for CH11. Fact is that no one wants to enter today. You cannot get financing. If you enter, you will have one heck of a time getting out. The airlines know this.

There will be a big squeeze going on through the end of next year. If the capital markets do not open up, I see at least two if not three carriers going in to CH11. Not by choice, but to survive. What the government does about that is anyones guess. I think they will allow foreign ownership.
As for DAL. They have decided not to mail a few hundred letters next month. They are holding off on pilot cuts. I am floored, but they want to keep the pilot so they can react to what will be happening this winter.