Dalpa ATL roadshow had a lot of yelling today

[Noserider76]

Why wouldn't they jump on him Bill?

He just dropped a steaming, POS turd on the workgroup. They should be all over him. There's more concessions than gains, from a multi-billion dollar company. Unreal.

Pretty easy to call it a turd when your group has yet to apply any pressure what so ever to your company making record profits. I have to ask what have you guys done to move the bar? 3 years past amenable and you just put together a SPC. Plenty of leverage but nothing done.

 

[General Lee]

You guys are gonna vote yes...I can sense it.

No, there are a lot of pissed off pilots, more than I have ever seen. Even though Bill and his other P2P friends think otherwise, this is no sure win for them. Even the MEC Chair has tried to change his tone from that yell fest at Peachtree City, but the New York roadshow still had it's interesting moments, lots of pacing back and forth in the background, especially by an ex ALPA type. They are worried, and this TA shouldn't have even left the negotiators.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Why wouldn't they jump on him Bill?

He just dropped a steaming, POS turd on the workgroup. They should be all over him. There's more concessions than gains, from a multi-billion dollar company. Unreal.

I actually agree with Red! The MEC chair did a YouTube video stating several things, including no changes to the profit sharing. So what was the result? A big change (for all employees too), and then a few other huge items, all during the most profitable time ever. What can Bill say? Probably what MD told him to say. I'd say most of the pilots can see it's a big concession overall.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Pretty easy to call it a turd when your group has yet to apply any pressure what so ever to your company making record profits. I have to ask what have you guys done to move the bar? 3 years past amenable and you just put together a SPC. Plenty of leverage but nothing done.

Are you seriously that stupid? Like PCL?

Yea, we could have EASILY had a turd TA on our hands 2 years ago. Would you be happy with that?

The NC, then the BOD are the gatekeepers. And so far, they've been doing their job. I'm patient enough to wait. MD at Delta (along with the NC), apparently is not. They dropped a turd on the membership and it's crazy they let it get this far. To date, SWAPA hasn't and it looks like they don't plan on following course.

PCL,

I already know some terms of our agreement, and it is in no way as onerous as what ALPA is trying to spin (and it IS pure spin). You're out of the industry and out of touch. SWAPA isn't rolling over like DALPA did, and it's shameful what is being rammed down the throats of our Delta buddies. It's really indefensible. I find it interesting that you're one of the proponents. All things ALPA, right doughboy?

The only question about the SW deal will be the language on 'interline' carriage of passengers. The NC already knows we are hard wired to vote NO on any codeshare....rates be damned. See the difference? Delta throws 8% at the group and the MEC lets it through. They never should have let that happened.

The current contract at Delta is better than the TA. There's no debating that fact.

 

[redflyer65]

I actually agree with Red! The MEC chair did a YouTube video stating several things, including no changes to the profit sharing. So what was the result? A big change (for all employees too), and then a few other huge items, all during the most profitable time ever. What can Bill say? Probably what MD told him to say. I'd say most of the pilots can see it's a big concession overall.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Completely agree General.

As many times as I've debated you on this forum, you guys deserve better in this environment. You should have the payrates without having to give up anymore PS (as in NONE). Why bow to the company on a new sick call system without getting anything in return. The FO buyout is being gutted. Why? Because that's what management wanted. Again, what did you get? Nothing my friend. Send it back.

I didn't even touch on the JV language. Didn't have to, the rest says it all.

 

[PCL_128]

I already know some terms of our agreement, and it is in no way as onerous

Oh, this is gonna be good! I can't wait to see this steaming pile!

 

[redflyer65]

Oh, this is gonna be good! I can't wait to see this steaming pile!

I'll give you a little insight PCL, there won't be any...

1- Sick call crackdown.
2- Profit Sharing give back.
3- Codeshare relief.

We will get ..

1. Solid pay raises.
2. Increased retirement dollars, without having to match.
3. Retro back to the amendable date including retirement dollars.

and 4....I enjoy you bloviating about something where you have no clue. Thanks for the comedy.

 

[PCL_128]

Keep it up, red! It will just make it all the more amusing when you get the egg on your face.

 

[redflyer65]

Keep it up, red! It will just make it all the more amusing when you get the egg on your face.

Hey PCL, I'm honest enough to be on this very forum telling you if it's a bad SWAPA deal. I have absolutely no angst in that.

Unfortunately, you don't have the same feeling regarding the Delta TA.......which is a bad agreement. It's that simple. More like intellectual dishonesty. Big difference.

 

[PCL_128]

red, if you've got a good deal, I'll say it's a good deal, despite my dislike of SWAPA. Your hatred of all things ALPA interferes in your judgement, however. You can certainly say that this deal is not "good enough." That's a defensible position. But your stubborn insistence that the deal is downright concessionary is not defensible, and is in fact demonstrably untrue.

 

[humveedriver]

Delta pilots will pass this TA by 60 percent.

 

[Noserider76]

Are you seriously that stupid? Like PCL?

Yea, we could have EASILY had a turd TA on our hands 2 years ago. Would you be happy with that?

The NC, then the BOD are the gatekeepers. And so far, they've been doing their job. I'm patient enough to wait. MD at Delta (along with the NC), apparently is not. They dropped a turd on the membership and it's crazy they let it get this far. To date, SWAPA hasn't and it looks like they don't plan on following course.

PCL,

I already know some terms of our agreement, and it is in no way as onerous as what ALPA is trying to spin (and it IS pure spin). You're out of the industry and out of touch. SWAPA isn't rolling over like DALPA did, and it's shameful what is being rammed down the throats of our Delta buddies. It's really indefensible. I find it interesting that you're one of the proponents. All things ALPA, right doughboy?

The only question about the SW deal will be the language on 'interline' carriage of passengers. The NC already knows we are hard wired to vote NO on any codeshare....rates be damned. See the difference? Delta throws 8% at the group and the MEC lets it through. They never should have let that happened.

The current contract at Delta is better than the TA. There's no debating that fact.

While you're sitting there throwing rocks about something you have no clue about why don't you enlighten us on how you have improved your contract lately with the leverage of a merger, international flights, and getting new -800s? 3 years late and no pressure on the company? Sounds like you're waiting for the "turd" DL serves up. Second one, by the way, since you've been negotiating one. It better be really good.

 

[redflyer65]

Throwing stones? Hardly Nose. I honestly think that you deserve better.....AND can achieve it. Don't buy into the defeatist mentality some are selling. You're worth more.

PCL, this has nothing to do with being anti-ALPA. Nothing. This deal was cut by the local leadership and most likely had little to do with ALPA national. This is a Delta pilot deal.....regardless of what union is behind it.

Here's an interesting read from the NYC rep...

066 - Contract 2015
Chairman?s Update #3
Fellow Pilots,

By now, you?ve been inundated with information regarding the Tentative Agreement. I apologize for some of the volume, but more information is better than less. I am proud that our council is one of the few to provide a pro-con paper.

In my previous Chairman?s Updates, I discussed my stance on self-respect. I stated that if the TA does not match the wishes of the line pilots and does not follow the direction of the MEC, it should have been voted down. I mentioned that three bogeymen are being used to instill fear in the ranks. The first being the threat that management will disengage from negotiations if this TA is rejected. The second, the threat that the National Mediation Board (NMB) will frown upon a rejected TA and drag its feet in helping us to achieve a settlement. The third, Time Value of Money. I urged you to reject fear. In this update, I believe it?s time for all parties to have an adult conversation about the ?What ifs?? if the TA is rejected by the Delta pilots.

This TA debate feels very, very different from any other I?ve witnessed, based upon the sheer volume and temperature of the feedback I?m receiving and witnessing in various online venues (some of which did not even exist 30 days ago).

If the TA is rejected, we know the following to be true statements:
? Pilot contracts do not expire, they become amendable.
? The current Pilot Working Agreement remains in effect.
? Our PWA is amendable on December 31, 2015.
? Current Profit Sharing formula remains.
? Current Sick Leave protections remain in effect.
? Current OE Trip Drop provisions remain intact.
? Current Scope provisions remain in effect.
? Potential for 3.B.4. ?me-too? raises.
? The MEC will meet to determine the plan for moving forward and discuss any changes, if necessary, to personnel and strategy.
? Both parties are required to bargain in good faith and must return to the table.
? Either party may request assistance from the National Mediation Board (NMB) on March 1, 2016.

Much has been said about the downsides of rejecting this TA. Some of those statements are technically true, and some are pure speculation and hyperbole. Some have posited that we will be faced with a Presidential Emergency Board (PEB) if we reject this TA (as if it would happen almost immediately). In theory, we could find our way to a PEB, but the chances of that are, quite literally, slim to none. In order to get to a PEB, management, ALPA, and the NMB would all have failed to come to a resolution over a protracted period. To claim that a PEB is all but guaranteed if we reject this TA requires a giant leap of logic, and that giant leap would bridge a lengthy period in which the company is forecast to make even greater unprecedented profits whilst still needing our help to manage extraordinary training demands and rapidly accelerating retirements.

Let me be clear?claiming we are destined for a PEB is fear mongering, pure and simple. To believe we will cross the PEB bridge means you must also have little respect for our company?s management team. This argument fails to give proper credit to management for their demonstrated professionalism, skills, and talents they?ve used to get Delta to the place it is today. Clearly, our management is top notch. The PEB argument simply fails to acknowledge the brave new world we (finally) find ourselves in, that of a post-consolidation era with lower oil prices and profits that were unthinkable just three short years ago.
If the oft-repeated claim that management will drag its feet and won?t budge from its table position (a table overflowing with $6 billion in profit on top of $5 billion in stock buybacks) is true, I believe we are better off finding out now that management has done a 180 and plans to undo all the good over the last few years. Will Management turn its back on its stated goals to stand out from the crowd? Will management dismiss Wall Street?s reaction to protracted, contentious negotiations? Does management really no longer care to treat its employees better than the other guys? Will Mr. Anderson ruin his well-deserved legacy at Delta just to teach us all a lesson? I?m not buying any of it, and nor should you.

As I mentioned in an earlier piece, recent history and experiences over at AA show that we are, in fact, operating in a completely different negotiating environment and under a very different paradigm. Just last year, the American Airlines Flight Attendants rejected a TA knowing in advance that a rejection guaranteed a significant pay cut. They rejected the agreement anyway, by a 16 vote margin. In the good ol? days, Mr. Doug Parker, CEO of AA and no friend of labor, would have delighted in this (by all measures) dumb move. Instead, he not only honored the TA they rejected; he unilaterally gave them an extra 4% raise a week later. Why? Apparently labor peace finally has value and demands attention. The AA experience is not a guarantee of our own management?s response, but it is certainly instructive.

Our management announced a change to our Sick Leave retroactivity date (now June 1) just prior to when voting was announced. This tells us a few things: 1. Just as I had expressed my concerns previously and frequently, a rushed agreement is ripe for errors and shortcomings. 2. What other time bombs were there that we were not able to get full vetting and valuation on? 3. Management appears to affirm that their ?last, best offer? was, in fact, not their last, best offer.

4. Management may be concerned the TA will be rejected.
There?s another angle to a rejection that is unique to 2015; the downsides are pretty well limited and already defined. One can examine every other TA in our history over the last 30 years and find possible downside threats from management that had some teeth. Sometimes, we had fellow pilots on furlough (C96), other times the money carrot was pretty darn inviting (C2K), and other times we had the promise of big airplanes (777). C15 is different. Very different. No pilots are on furlough; hiring is expected to continue indefinitely; the real value of the money carrot is for you to decide, and the only shiny new airplanes being dangled are at the bottom of the scale (and some are being acquired to replace MD-88 flying). In my view, putting just pay aside, there are real downsides to accepting this deal, unlike we?ve seen in previous up contracts.

If the Delta pilots reject this TA, it will be the first time in our history. Sure, there will likely be much gnashing of teeth, hand wringing, and emotional responses, but with your support and direction, you have my commitment that I will work tirelessly to take the necessary steps to get us to a successful conclusion, for a contract we can all be proud of.

I reject the defeatist thinking that we are witnessing. I honestly believe much better days are ahead for our profession. When I ran for office, I promised to fight the status quo on your behalf. Far from perfect, I feel I have done my best to live up to my end of the bargain.
The decision as to whether to accept or reject the TA is now in your hands. It is my sincere belief your decision will set the stage for us, and the entire industry for decades to come. I won?t tell you how to vote. No matter which way you vote, I will only ask that you vote out of pride, not fear.

 

[General Lee]

PCL is a union hack trying to get hired into the Moak Group. And Bill is his understudy, hoping to move up from P2P to Supreme Commander. Both think we all can't see how concessionary this TA is. We all must be idiots, according to those two clowns. This very well may be the first TA ever voted down by the pilots, because it really is that bad.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

P2P....nope...long time ago I did union work.

But then again GL is now our voice of reason here on FI?

 

[400ADude]

Keep it up, red! It will just make it all the more amusing when you get the egg on your face.

Egg on the face? I fail to understand his obsession with Duhlta TA cause it ain't his company. However, the most egg on face by far has to be with you critter boys on how your own merger SLI list was going to go down. My god those predictions were funny and look what happened. Critter boy you should keep your mouth filled with food and not predictions.

 

[maru657]

Both pilot groups can whine for awhile but then sign, because their only option is to strike and neither can afford that. This is the proverbial painted corner.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Both pilot groups can whine for awhile but then sign, because their only option is to strike and neither can afford that. This is the proverbial painted corner.

You know, you keep saying crap like this: "they can't afford to strike." Well, in general, nobody can afford to, but sometimes they do it anyway. Are you trying to get someone to strike, so you can make a point of crossing a picket line? Is that it?

Friggin' washed-up, scab-wannabe.

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

You know, you keep saying crap like this: "they can't afford to strike." Well, in general, nobody can afford to, but sometimes they do it anyway. Are you trying to get someone to strike, so you can make a point of crossing a picket line? Is that it?

Friggin' washed-up, scab-wannabe.

Bubba

Strike?? How about keep the same contract that has better profit sharing and doesn't give away the farm like this terrible TA does? There are bag tags being made now saying "Vote No, Status Quo." This TA was done 6 months prior to the amendable date anyway. The groups rushing this process are management and for some unknown reason the union.

And Bill, you certainly aren't the voice of reason anymore for anything dealing with the Big D. You have shown your true colors, pal.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Strike?? How about keep the same contract that has better profit sharing and doesn't give away the farm like this terrible TA does? There are bag tags being made now saying "Vote No, Status Quo." This TA was done 6 months prior to the amendable date anyway. The groups rushing this process are management and for some unknown reason the union.

And Bill, you certainly aren't the voice of reason anymore for anything dealing with the Big D. You have shown your true colors, pal.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Ahh the dispatcher has spoken!!