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DAL, Why Vote Yes???

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Fly4hire

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Posts
861
Fellow Council 44 Pilots:



The Inevitables

SLI vs. JCBA

I Expected More

The Northwest Pilots are getting more than ’I’m getting

So what is this all about?

Contact Info



We have been in the lounges over the past couple of weeks explaining the JCBA
and why we unanimously ratified the agreement and recommend it to you for
passage. Prior to the opening of the vote on Monday we wished to clear up
some common misperceptions we have encountered and briefly give you the
reason behind our thinking. We encourage you to read all the material
produced before casting your vote.



The Inevitables



There are two things which are going to happen and we cannot stop. Delta’s
Board, on behalf of the shareholders, has told our management to merge this
company with Northwest Airlines. Under ALPA Merger Policy in the absence of
a mutually agreed upon change in method, we are contractually obligated to
a process which will merge the seniority lists within 150 days of a call by
either pilot group for a PID (policy initiation date) which normally
occurs after Date of Corporate Closure. So no matter what one may think … this
merger is on and the seniority list is going to be integrated!



SLI vs. JCBA



One of the most common themes we’ve heard is the idea that we can tie passage
of a Joint Contract to the Seniority List Integration process. We don’t
believe this kind of leverage is possible even were it desirable. Again,
under ALPA Merger Policy, the Seniority List will be integrated and both
pilot groups know this. The idea that one side will change their bargaining
position in favor of an earlier pay raise does not strike us as likely.



Additionally some of you have stated to us you will not vote for a JCBA
unless and until you have seen the SLI. For a clearly illustrated example of a
possible outcome when SLI occurs before JCBA, one only need look at US
Airways. The US Airways/America West seniority list arbitration award occurred
a year ago. Since that time the US Airways pilots (dominated by Airways
“East” votes) have formed their own union (USAPA) and there is now open
conflict between Airways pilots as one group seeks to pressure the other into
accepting their version of a just award. All the while USAPA’s lawyers
continue to feed at the pilot trough attempting to overturn a legally binding
agreement. During this internecine warfare neither pilot group can expect
any improvements to their contract, their company is furloughing out of
seniority, and US Airways cannot achieve anywhere close to its merger goals.
This is not what we want for Delta and the Delta pilots. I can assure you your
elected representatives will do everything in our power to keep this type
of pilot vs. pilot meltdown from ruining our Company and our pilot group.
We will post this arbitration award on the Council 44 website (Called the
Nicolau award)



I Expected More



We hear from many of you that LOA 19 was a “no brainer” because the JCBA
would follow and could only improve our returns. We did in fact achieve
improvements which, when coupled with LOA 19 amount to an increased total
remuneration exceeding 21 percent over four years. The results of our
negotiations reflected the reality of the airline industry. We considered these
results a hedge against a very uncertain future. Additionally the Seniority
Process Agreement we achieved with the Northwest Pilots protects our group
from the possible vagaries of a single person arbitration, relying instead on
the judgment of three individual arbitrators.



The Northwest Pilots are getting more than ’I’m getting



The Northwest Pilots currently make 7.5-10 percent less than the Delta Pilots
depending on position. From day one it has been our stance that they be
treated like Delta Pilots on day one of Corporate Closure. The notion that
we can get more (at the bargaining table) if they get less is not
substantiated. Even if possible, any gain here at the Northwest pilot’s expense
would undoubtedly foster the kind of hard feelings which dog a career to
everyone’s detriment. This should not be our goal and is not the kind of
leadership you will get from this MEC.



I see no risk in turning down this JCBA



In our opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. As pilots we live
by managing risk and our longevity is proof of our competence. Your
assumption in voting no should be based on your knowledge/belief in an airline
industry turn around, the relative vicinity of that turnaround, and
improvement possible versus the risk of losing the improvements we have gained, and
the SLI Process Agreement. Bear in mind that we must eventually reach a
JCBA with the Northwest Pilots or end up staring across a no man’s land where
both the company and the pilots suffer. Our vision is to restore our lost
wages and a better retirement, but we can only do that together while
working for a profitable Delta. There is significant risk in the industry right
now and it must be acknowledged.



So what is this all about?



We consider this a rare confluence of mutual interests. We are faced with an
industry in turmoil, shrinking its capacity, and panic stricken for cash.
Our airline is trying to break the traditional mold in forming an entity
which spans the globe to enable sustainable profits. For the Company to
unlock valuable network synergies it needs a joint pilot contract and SLI
between the two pilot groups. For the value we provide to the transaction, we
have already captured significant improvements to our contract. This Joint
Contract removes part of the uncertainty in yet another extremely uncertain
time for our industry and also provides a more reliable process to achieve
a fair and equitable SLI. For our part, this is the last piece we will add
to the puzzle, in merging two great pilot groups, with long, proud
histories. We will leave it up to management to put the rest together: to turn
the “New Delta” into a stronger, more profitable airline—and that is in all
our best interests.



We are printing a ROAR soon and there will be more information coming from
the MEC. Please make an informed decision before you vote. We strongly
recommend you ratify this JCBA



Fraternally,


xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
(deleted for privacy)
 
Not commented on: without the JPWA only NWA pilots have flow down rights to CPZ in the event of furlough.....
 
Fellow Council 44 Pilots:



The Inevitables

SLI vs. JCBA

I Expected More

The Northwest Pilots are getting more than ’I’m getting

So what is this all about?

Contact Info



We have been in the lounges over the past couple of weeks explaining the JCBA
and why we unanimously ratified the agreement and recommend it to you for
passage. Prior to the opening of the vote on Monday we wished to clear up
some common misperceptions we have encountered and briefly give you the
reason behind our thinking. We encourage you to read all the material
produced before casting your vote.



The Inevitables



There are two things which are going to happen and we cannot stop. Delta’s
Board, on behalf of the shareholders, has told our management to merge this
company with Northwest Airlines. Under ALPA Merger Policy in the absence of
a mutually agreed upon change in method, we are contractually obligated to
a process which will merge the seniority lists within 150 days of a call by
either pilot group for a PID (policy initiation date) which normally
occurs after Date of Corporate Closure. So no matter what one may think … this
merger is on and the seniority list is going to be integrated!



SLI vs. JCBA



One of the most common themes we’ve heard is the idea that we can tie passage
of a Joint Contract to the Seniority List Integration process. We don’t
believe this kind of leverage is possible even were it desirable. Again,
under ALPA Merger Policy, the Seniority List will be integrated and both
pilot groups know this. The idea that one side will change their bargaining
position in favor of an earlier pay raise does not strike us as likely.



Additionally some of you have stated to us you will not vote for a JCBA
unless and until you have seen the SLI. For a clearly illustrated example of a
possible outcome when SLI occurs before JCBA, one only need look at US
Airways. The US Airways/America West seniority list arbitration award occurred
a year ago. Since that time the US Airways pilots (dominated by Airways
“East” votes) have formed their own union (USAPA) and there is now open
conflict between Airways pilots as one group seeks to pressure the other into
accepting their version of a just award. All the while USAPA’s lawyers
continue to feed at the pilot trough attempting to overturn a legally binding
agreement. During this internecine warfare neither pilot group can expect
any improvements to their contract, their company is furloughing out of
seniority, and US Airways cannot achieve anywhere close to its merger goals.
This is not what we want for Delta and the Delta pilots. I can assure you your
elected representatives will do everything in our power to keep this type
of pilot vs. pilot meltdown from ruining our Company and our pilot group.
We will post this arbitration award on the Council 44 website (Called the
Nicolau award)



I Expected More



We hear from many of you that LOA 19 was a “no brainer” because the JCBA
would follow and could only improve our returns. We did in fact achieve
improvements which, when coupled with LOA 19 amount to an increased total
remuneration exceeding 21 percent over four years. The results of our
negotiations reflected the reality of the airline industry. We considered these
results a hedge against a very uncertain future. Additionally the Seniority
Process Agreement we achieved with the Northwest Pilots protects our group
from the possible vagaries of a single person arbitration, relying instead on
the judgment of three individual arbitrators.



The Northwest Pilots are getting more than ’I’m getting



The Northwest Pilots currently make 7.5-10 percent less than the Delta Pilots
depending on position. From day one it has been our stance that they be
treated like Delta Pilots on day one of Corporate Closure. The notion that
we can get more (at the bargaining table) if they get less is not
substantiated. Even if possible, any gain here at the Northwest pilot’s expense
would undoubtedly foster the kind of hard feelings which dog a career to
everyone’s detriment. This should not be our goal and is not the kind of
leadership you will get from this MEC.



I see no risk in turning down this JCBA



In our opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. As pilots we live
by managing risk and our longevity is proof of our competence. Your
assumption in voting no should be based on your knowledge/belief in an airline
industry turn around, the relative vicinity of that turnaround, and
improvement possible versus the risk of losing the improvements we have gained, and
the SLI Process Agreement. Bear in mind that we must eventually reach a
JCBA with the Northwest Pilots or end up staring across a no man’s land where
both the company and the pilots suffer. Our vision is to restore our lost
wages and a better retirement, but we can only do that together while
working for a profitable Delta. There is significant risk in the industry right
now and it must be acknowledged.



So what is this all about?



We consider this a rare confluence of mutual interests. We are faced with an
industry in turmoil, shrinking its capacity, and panic stricken for cash.
Our airline is trying to break the traditional mold in forming an entity
which spans the globe to enable sustainable profits. For the Company to
unlock valuable network synergies it needs a joint pilot contract and SLI
between the two pilot groups. For the value we provide to the transaction, we
have already captured significant improvements to our contract. This Joint
Contract removes part of the uncertainty in yet another extremely uncertain
time for our industry and also provides a more reliable process to achieve
a fair and equitable SLI. For our part, this is the last piece we will add
to the puzzle, in merging two great pilot groups, with long, proud
histories. We will leave it up to management to put the rest together: to turn
the “New Delta” into a stronger, more profitable airline—and that is in all
our best interests.



We are printing a ROAR soon and there will be more information coming from
the MEC. Please make an informed decision before you vote. We strongly
recommend you ratify this JCBA



Fraternally,


xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
(deleted for privacy)

Looking at the facts and all the information provided by both MEC's the above message is DEAD ON. The above in bold is very important in the fact that if its voted down we are looking surely at going to arbitration for the SLI and none of us want that. This really is an opportunity to come together and become the industry leader in many ways as well as become a solid unified pilot group.

Cheers to that :beer:
 
It really comes down to one thing for the DAL guys.
You have to ask yourselves' if you want to be a combined group or a divided group in the long term. This JPWA is not about pay raises and such, it is about unity, with another group of pilots out of the gate. It really has never been done before.
Are there risks? Yes, many, and especially in this economic environment. Fact is that three years down the road we will truly see what a yes, or no vote has done for us. This is all about the long term, not the next two to three years.
Because of this I am voting Yes. There are things that I do not like in the JPWA, but with everything comes risk. I am willing to take a risk to reap the rewards in the long term.
 
It really comes down to one thing for the DAL guys.
You have to ask yourselves' if you want to be a combined group or a divided group in the long term. ......... There are things that I do not like in the JPWA, but with everything comes risk. I am willing to take a risk to reap the rewards in the long term.

Ditto. There is plenty I don't care for, but from all my sources, public and private this merger IS going to happen. If it was in the cards I'd just assume retire from NWA as I'm sure most of you would from an independent DAL rather then this shotgun wedding.

The sooner we start thinking like 12000 DAL pilots and start rowing in the same direction, the sooner we will have the ability to direct and enhance our own future as opposed to a giant 5000 vs. 7000 whipsaw opportunity gift wrapped for an ex-Lorenzo lawyer.

RA is suave, smooth, and even from the South, but never, ever, forget his background.
 
I know, and I know people who dealt with him first hand at UHC. I have a fairly good perspective of who he is, and what he will do to get something done.
 
Last edited:
That is one of the most logical explanations you as two pilot groups could have possible recieved on the issues you face. I would be very proud of the team you have working for you. You can have a really good chance of having "unity" to the extent possible if this passes.

Medeco
 
It was a good communique by LEC 44, however, in the end, good will and turn out will determine the success or failure of this TA. The big threats to JCBA ratification that I see.

-Voting has become more complex, with VINs and PINs etc., potentially lowering turnout.

-With so many votes recently cast on LOA46, 50, 51, strike authorizations, merger assesments, Cobra assesments, LOA19 etc., pilots might begin to tune out on voting. Turn out begins to drop, witness the low turn out for LOA19, which had much more in the way of returns for the DAL pilots than the JCBA.

-With very little in the way of returns in the JCBA, there may not be much to motivate a pilot to pay attention and vote "yes". However, the "no" voters, may be more motivated.

-The SLI process agreement and JCBA are joined at the hip, both dependent on ratification of the JCBA. Absent significant progress in negotiating SLI, the uncertainty of the end result of the SLI process agreement will motivate more "no" voters to turn out and vote. Many normally moderate DAL pilots may be looking for progress in SLI negotiations before they vote "yes".

-Two months of steady DAL pilot bashing has eroded good will from many normally moderate DAL pilots.

-Laz, during SLI 1. Need I say more.

What's the answer. Turning down the volume on rhetoric/threats, getting Laz out of the picture, progress on SLI negotiations.

IMO, 2 out of 3 have been accomplished.

With a negotiated SLI, or significant progress on SLI, with minimal open issues, the TA will easily pass.
 
Last edited:
Heyas,

I agree with both F4H and FDJ.

The voting was made more complex thanks to a lawsuit. Nothing could be done there.

I think the rhetoric has been turned down a notch. Only the "it's all about me" crowd at NWA is still bitching, and they're easy to tune out.

I'd say the NWA group bashing was at least equal to the DAL pilot bashing. It seems to have stopped for the moment. Lets hope it doesn't bubble over again.

"Yes" for me.

Nu
 
What lawsuit? Do you mean US APA?

When might there be a status report on SLI?

I would like to know more details on the post merger fleet plan.

Very likely a yes vote. Both MEC's have done a good job.
 
Last edited:
Yes. If you are junior now you will still be junior, if senior the same. Imho, the battleground is the middle. The what would be the middle at Dal had great movement and ours was/is about to start. Hopefully, there will be a middle ground. I think in light of the economy there is better than 40/60 chance of ch11 if merger goes relatively smooth and about 70/30 if drug out. There is a small window to keep the combined airline in safe harbor but there will be people pissed throughout the seniority list on both sides.




Do we expect a status report on SLI?
 
What lawsuit? Do you mean US APA?

When might there be a status report on SLI?

I would like to know more details on the post merger fleet plan.

Very likely a yes vote. Both MEC's have done a good job.

Heyas Fins,

Dunno. I had heard that there was a lawsuit that forced tightening the e-/phone voting procedures. I don't know if was even ALPA, and may have been at a different union.

Unless things are abyssmal, I'd think the update before the voting closes would be "positive" or "encouraging", considering the position of both MECs.

Nu
 
That is one of the most logical explanations you as two pilot groups could have possible recieved on the issues you face. I would be very proud of the team you have working for you. You can have a really good chance of having "unity" to the extent possible if this passes.

Medeco

Couldn't agree more!!:beer:
 
Yes. If you are junior now you will still be junior, if senior the same. Imho, the battleground is the middle. The what would be the middle at Dal had great movement and ours was/is about to start. Hopefully, there will be a middle ground. I think in light of the economy there is better than 40/60 chance of ch11 if merger goes relatively smooth and about 70/30 if drug out. There is a small window to keep the combined airline in safe harbor but there will be people pissed throughout the seniority list on both sides.

I don't know much but I do know this: It shouldn't matter how much anyone has or hasn't moved in the past and any deal needs to assume all pilots will retire at 65.
 

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