DAL, Why Vote No???

[Superpilot92]

One can't help but see the train wreck coming.

What are the odds that one side will furlough before entering binding arbitration. Once the arbitration starts, it is guaranteed that the stronger side (anyone want to guess who that will be?) will point out to the arbitrator that the furloughees do not bring jobs to the table.

Wonder who will be wearing yellow lanyards first.

odds are 0.01% imp: Thanks for your contribution to the discussion though.:erm:

 

[~~~^~~~]

I heard that from a DAL B777 captain! It's what he was calling the dweebs considering a "no" vote on the T.A. to "gain leverage on the SLI".

Please, please, please, do not take the ramblings of an individual pilot as a representative position of the entire group on anything. Ten years later and I'm still hearing that RJ pilots demanded DOH and the left seat of 767's. To this day those now retired crew room big mouths have harmed our union's need for unity.

I know he was calling no voters dweebs, but still, the need for proper perspective remains.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I told you back in April DALPA was committed to a joint contract with parity before DCC. I posted the resolution, which you and others mocked.

Add a couple more layers to your history lesson, and we'll have the components for an interesting study in rhetoric vs. action.

"Mocking" is too strong a word. I was skeptical that there would be strong, universal support for "Bringing the NWA guys up" by the DAL group in a post-LOA 19 world.

Call me prescient.

Even you will have to admit there appears to be a sentiment amongst some of your brethren that suggests there might have been an "*" after those fraternal assurances.

* We'll pull you up if we can gain some sort of advantage by doing it.

I tossed out the scenario with my disclaimer. Ignore it as blithering from a clueless dork if you choose. I'll try not to take it personally.

I remember your skepticism and questioning of the order of events, contract first or SLI. I told you why the contract had to come first.

You did. You were correct.

If I remember correctly, you were busy at the time watching our feet.

Still am. That's what this is about! The music is still playing. Until this thing is completely settled, the "Walk the walk" requirement is still there.

The votes aren't cast yet, so how about you knock it off with imaginary scenarios and avoid possibly poisoning the well.

Does "imaginary" mean "unlikely" or "impossible"?

Here's what it boils down to, amigo: Do the DAL pilots support their MEC?

An answer other than "Yes" is problematic...as you well know.

I support MY MEC. I also support YOUR MEC, now that they've clearly "walked the walk" and upheld their promise.

Now it's down to YOU. As the commercial asks..."Is it in you?"

Every vote counts and I don't share your optimism that this is a done deal.

Will your pilot group then initiate Recall action against your entire MEC? How could you possibly tolerate a group that far out-of-touch with the goals of it's constituents?

You'll have plenty of time to let us know how smart and witty you are later, I'll even laugh at your jokes when you buy the beer.

Me "smart and witty"?

I prefer droll and waggish.

 

[JohnDoe]

Just read an interesting tidbit with regards to the belief in the "separation of contract and SLI."

Read a post from somebody that attended the roadshow in MSP. He asked this question specifically, and was told that if either side votes down the joint contract, the SLI starts over as well.

????????

 

[Noserider76]

Just read an interesting tidbit with regards to the belief in the "separation of contract and SLI."

Read a post from somebody that attended the roadshow in MSP. He asked this question specifically, and was told that if either side votes down the joint contract, the SLI starts over as well.

????????

It means the framework to achieve the SLI agreed on in the JPWA will no longer be in place. It would be back to ALPA merger policy or whatever system the two groups agree on in the future.

 

[Superpilot92]

It means the framework to achieve the SLI agreed on in the JPWA will no longer be in place. It would be back to ALPA merger policy or whatever system the two groups agree on in the future.

Which is another incentive to not vote this down because that will dump our negotiated SLI stance and almost force arbitration = not good for either side.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

So, in other words, you DON'T KNOW. You would be "surprised" if they hadn't spent time in the other seats. Hey, you said it yourself, you are a NWA pilot. Call them up, give them an FMS quiz. You will find out right quick.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey General,

I'm looking forward to flying with you. I hope you're good at walkarounds and talking on the radio.

 

[michael707767]

Ten years later and I'm still hearing that RJ pilots demanded DOH and the left seat of 767's.

For the record, I know the official position was never DOH and left seat in a 767. However, I did have a CMR pilot on the jumpseat who told me that's what he should get. The RJ pilots were their own worst enemy during that period.

 

[BUCK]

How many did NWA hire post 9/11?

 

[Superpilot92]

How many did NWA hire post 9/11?

I believe it was only 190 pilots post 9/11.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The RJ pilots were their own worst enemy during that period.

Very well stated.

Occam (showing a lapse in his usually stellar judgment) risks a similar outcome by listening to and repeating unbased rumors.

The Delta MEC's communications are trying to downplay the "they got more than us" argument against parity in the JPWA. There was, and is, not some hidden agenda. IMHO they decided early on that there was no advantage to be gained by internecine warfare.

 

[JoeMerchant]

For the record, I know the official position was never DOH and left seat in a 767. However, I did have a CMR pilot on the jumpseat who told me that's what he should get. The RJ pilots were their own worst enemy during that period.

All that matters is the "official" position. The official position was to use ALPA merger policy. We all know that wouldn't have been DOH.

While some may have wanted that, it wasn't going to happen. The DAL MEC spread misinformation that the ASA and CMR MECs wanted DOH. That simply wasn't true.

Yes Michael, I'm sure you could find ASA and CMR pilots who wanted DOH. I myself ran into more than one DAL pilot who didn't think their squadron buddies should have to start in an RJ....There are extremes on both sides.....

The fact is, the "DOH" issue was politics on the part of the DAL MEC....

 

[JoeMerchant]

The RJ pilots were their own worst enemy during that period.

Very well stated.

Occam (showing a lapse in his usually stellar judgment) risks a similar outcome by listening to and repeating unbased rumors.

The Delta MEC's communications are trying to downplay the "they got more than us" argument against parity in the JPWA. There was, and is, not some hidden agenda. IMHO they decided early on that there was no advantage to be gained by internecine warfare.

My good friend....my how you have changed your opinion of the DAL MEC and "the RJ pilots" since you were a supporter of the PID and an RJDC supporter....How exactly were we....including you.....our own worst enemy?

 

[PuffDriver]

All that matters is the "official" position. The official position was to use ALPA merger policy. We all know that wouldn't have been DOH.

While some may have wanted that, it wasn't going to happen. The DAL MEC spread misinformation that the ASA and CMR MECs wanted DOH. That simply wasn't true.

Yes Michael, I'm sure you could find ASA and CMR pilots who wanted DOH. I myself ran into more than one DAL pilot who didn't think their squadron buddies should have to start in an RJ....There are extremes on both sides.....

The fact is, the "DOH" issue was politics on the part of the DAL MEC....

You could find a whole bunch. Even worse, it would have triggered an ALPA PID which would have tipped the scales over to the advantage side of the RJDC crowd, who would have sabotaged the whole proccess and acted like a recent NWA pilot group, only on speed. Their breath would have been held until arbitration, where it would have been released in their manure spouting drivel in an argument for DOH. Very unlikely that an arbitrator would have put all at the bottom, although that would have been a windfall in itself. So whoever was NOT at the bottom would have reaped a windfall at another's expense, which is a thoroughly subjective part of ALPA policy and violated thoroughly in the USAir/AWA arbitration.


Then, of course, would have come the sticky part of using all available resources to compel management to accept the list. There were not nearly enough resources Greenspan's printing machine to compel our management to give up their child labor boys and girls.

Those are two little details the RJDC crowd love to leave out. Two little impossibly insurmountable details I might add. Not to mention that our very own Joe told his very own pilots as they were leaving his very own company how foolish they were since down the road they would be junior to people they used to be senior. Yep, a boldface lie, a wolf in wolf's clothing.

You were two faced then, as you are now. You were wrong then, you are wrong now. You can't, nor could you ever, make the argument. I hope you got the memo that scope was going to be unchanged in LOA 19. Your RJDC boys knew all of this as well, and the lawsuit was about money to them. Nothing more nothing less. They got spanked, hard. The spanking will now continue. Some 700 guys could have flowed up, and had a soft landing in this merger. Now you are on the outside looking in. <collective sigh>

Buh bye.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe:

By failing to recognize and deal with the politics at the line pilot level. Herndon does not tell the Delta line pilots how to think, or vote.

Even the RJDC name sounds threatening. How do you think the NWA pilots would respond to the "Delta Pilots Defense Coalition?"

The Delta MEC is holding school on how to handle the difficult politics of a merger in a highly dynamic situation. Richard Anderson, Lee Moak, and those who run the show are a completely different crew than Mullin, Giambusso, Michelle Burns and that group.

If you notice, no bombs are thrown.

I don't know if you remember my suggestion for "I'd be grateful for a staple" buttons, but, that would have been a simple way of effectively communicating the expectation of what a pay, or equipment type, merger would have resulted in.

 

[~~~^~~~]

There were not nearly enough resources Greenspan's printing machine to compel our management to give up their child labor boys and girls.

Those are two little details the RJDC crowd love to leave out.

Whoa. We don't know the answer to that. ALPA never asked the question. (there is one very old Mullin letter I need to look at - if I can find it I'll try to get it posted)

I recall management's expectation was that merger policy would apply. With an order for 500 airplanes everyone thought the Delta MEC would want to capture that growth. (if they had seen the CRJ700/900/1000 or the E-Jets coming before 9/11, Giambusso might have had a different perspective)

The idea that scope would be sold for bargaining credit was not put into play until concessionary bargaining - as far as I know. The exploitation of child labor came later after ALPA failed in its core mission of unity. (IMHO that set a very bad precedent and until people who's opinions matter - like yours - support & promote the value of scope, things probably will not change)

A good indicator of management's thoughts at that time are on the Delta family tree in the museum they built in 1999 - 2000. The last panel is the ASA merger with Delta. There are probably memos on the topic archived somewhere, but they are not relevant to ALPA's handling and no one has ever bothered to get them.

On your other point, we agree. The PID should have been diffused before it was tossed out at the BOD. As you and others have pointed out, this would have been best done MEC to MEC (just like the Delta MEC did with NWA). Instead it was thrown over the fence like a grenade and recieved with similar effect. I understand your reaction and wish that things had been done differently - even if Joe labels me a turncoat for calling it what it is.

What Joe fails to appreciate is how ineffective trying to force a merger actually was. He blames ALPA, but the truth is that without a MEC to MEC agreement and an indifferent management (which I believe Mullin was) it was not going to happen against the will of the Delta pilots, no way, no how, not even close.)

Puff Driver - just so I know where you are coming from - do you see a benefit to having the so called regional jets flown by mainline pilots?

 

[~~~^~~~]

BTW - Leo sighting. All his first class travel must be for Goldman Sach Capitol Partners.

New York, NY, April 10, 2008 -- Leo F. Mullin today was named Chairman of the Board of the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation International, the largest charitable funder of type 1 diabetes research in the world. Mr. Mullin, 65, is a Senior Advisor to Goldman Sachs Capital Partners, the private equity unit of Goldman Sachs, the investment banking firm; he is the retired Chairman and CEO of Delta Air Lines.

Due to its secretive firm culture and revolving door relationship with the Federal government, Goldman has recently been referred to as Wall Street's secret society, with former Goldman employees currently heading the New York Stock Exchange, the World Bank, the U.S. Treasury Department, the White House staff, and even rival firms such as Citigroup and Merrill Lynch. Its landmark profits during the 2007 Subprime mortgage financial crisis led the New York Times to proclaim that Goldman Sachs is without peer in the world of finance.[8] The firm is also heavily involved in energy trading, including the increasingly-controversial oil speculation market.[9]

As of 2006, Goldman Sachs employed 26,467 people worldwide. It reported earnings of US$9.34 billion and record earnings per share of $19.69.[10] It was reported that the average total compensation per employee in 2006 was US$622,000.[11

 

[PuffDriver]

Whoa. We don't know the answer to that. ALPA never asked the question. (there is one very old Mullin letter I need to look at - if I can find it I'll try to get it posted)

I recall management's expectation was that merger policy would apply. With an order for 500 airplanes everyone thought the Delta MEC would want to capture that growth. (if they had seen the CRJ700/900/1000 or the E-Jets coming before 9/11, Giambusso might have had a different perspective)

The idea that scope would be sold for bargaining credit was not developed until concessionary bargaining - as far as I know. The exploitation of child labor (I like your term) came later after ALPA failed in its core mission of unity. (IMHO that set a very bad precedent and until people who's opinions matter - like yours - are on board with the value of scope, things probably will not change)

A good indicator of management's thoughts at that time are on the Delta family tree in the museum they built in 1999 - 2000. The last panel is the ASA merger with Delta. There are probably memos on the topic archived somewhere, but they are not relevant to ALPA's handling and no one has ever bothered to get them.

On your other point - the PID should have been diffused before it was tossed out at the BOD by attempting agreement at the MEC level (just like the Delta MEC did with NWA). Instead it was thrown over the fence like a grenade and recieved with similar effect. I understand your reaction and wish that things had been done differently - even if Joe labels me a turncoat for calling it what it is.

Puff Driver - just so I know where you are coming from - do you see a benefit to having the so called regional jets flown by mainline pilots?

Let me be clear, it is NOT a reaction. It's just business. Delta pilots, negotiate with Delta management. ASA nor Comair have ANY business at the bargaining table, and now the courts have affirmed that. I respect them as aviators, but their place is their place. They feed, they feed for Delta. All of Delta's flying belongs to the Delta pilots, all of it. We do with it what WE--Delta pilots--and management--Delta management--can hammer out in negotiations.

I have always been an advocate of having the RJs on the mainline list. That doesn't mean we integrate pilots from other airlines, who have their eyes on a larger prize, and want to do it outside of the system. 98% of pilots are fair men, men of goodwill. The other 2% are looking to advance whilst stepping on others.

What you and he fail to mention is what I typed. Delta ALWAYS had the option of putting rjs at mainline--using mainline pilots. That in itself pretty much sums it up. It is an aircraft that feeds, and serves thin routes. It's limited shelf life is now becoming apparent, and the Joes of the world will reap what they have sown.

Trust me, I started screaming about scope from day 1 on the property. We have a lid on it, it would seem. We have very real protection in place for junior pilots, not with a no-furlough clause, but the very stiff penalty that arises out of furloughs with regards to seats. I think that the 1000 is a fine aircraft, and it HAS to be flown by mainline pilots. What a great way to pave new way for industry leading flow through, and the associated job protections with flow back. You don't get something for nothing, and the majors are STILL a superior job for pay and QOL over any regional.

I see about a 10 second lapse here before some hothead decides that I am talking down to him. No doubt a well-placed double breasted sky god comment will come hither. So save it. You guys can fly our sh&*, we can fly your sh(*. You are all fully qualified, you are great aviators. Blah, blah. It's not a big pee pee contest. It is what it is. It has always been that way. Until our idiot union fixes things with regard to merger policy subjectiveness, and alter ego positions--don't hold your breath--that is the way that it will stay.

Your version of what management wanted back in the day doesn't fly. They could have merged the companies from day 1. They didn't. They didn't want to, and no amount of money would have compelled them to. End of story.

My solution is to pull all of Delta's domestic flying back under 1 umbrella using Delta pilots at the helm. At every opportunity, we should be re-strengthening scope where possible, striking when necessary when this company is back on solid footing. That does not include merging of lists. It could include flow through, and flow back.

 

[N2264J]

Re: DAL, Why Vote No?

On your other point, we agree. The PID should have been diffused before it was tossed out at the BOD...Instead it was thrown over the fence like a grenade and recieved with similar effect.

Just a couple of points:

There were two times that I know of, maybe three, when JC Lawson and the late Bob Arnold broached the subject with Chuck Giambusso before it was filed in accordance with policy.

Also, we petitioned in July 2000 with a hearing by the Executive Council in August. The PID was quite dead by the BOD in October. The Comair & ASA MECs brought resolutions to the board to try bring merger policy back to where it was before October 1998. As I recall, those resolutions were co sponsored by every "regional" there. What we got for that exercise was the Bi lateral Scope Impact Committee.

Saying it was thrown over the fence like a gernade misses the mark and reinforces a preconceived notion while deflecting the real issue which is: ALPA's fiduciary responsibility to ensure "collective bargaining" on the property.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Let me be clear, it is NOT a reaction. It's just business. Delta pilots, negotiate with Delta management. ASA nor Comair have ANY business at the bargaining table, and now the courts have affirmed that.

Are you overlooking the fact that Comair's contract now binds Delta and ASA's binds SkyWest? I'm unsure what you think the Court(s) affirmed. ALPA national made the change in policy about two and a half years ago, which is one reason why ASA finally got a contract.

All of Delta's flying belongs to the Delta pilots, all of it. We do with it what WE--Delta pilots--and management--Delta management--can hammer out in negotiations.

Seriously, you don't think Delta sold flying? If it is sold, how do you get it back? (you know I advocate getting it back by putting Compass on the list)

What you and he fail to mention is what I typed. Delta ALWAYS had the option of putting rjs at mainline--using mainline pilots.

Trust me, I started screaming about scope from day 1 on the property. We have a lid on it, it would seem. We have very real protection in place for junior pilots, not with a no-furlough clause, but the very stiff penalty that arises out of furloughs with regards to seats.

You may be right, but don't fuel prices likely negate the furlough protections? You are correct that the requirements to reconfigure the 76 seater has some teeth, but it only applies to those hired before the post 9/11/2001 group.

When more than 62% of Delta block hours are flown by non seniority list pilots I'm not sure that is "keeping a lid on it."

Until our idiot union fixes things with regard to merger policy subjectiveness, and alter ego positions--don't hold your breath--that is the way that it will stay.

My solution is to pull all of Delta's domestic flying back under 1 umbrella using Delta pilots at the helm. At every opportunity, we should be re-strengthening scope where possible, striking when necessary when this company is back on solid footing.

You stated this perfectly. You do know how ALPA's merger policy got subjective, with the removal of "operational integration" from the Constitution and Bylaws, right?

That does not include merging of lists. It could include flow through, and flow back.

So you think we could unilaterally negotiate scope and simply force companies like Compass, Mesaba, or SkyWest off the property?

Your version of what management wanted back in the day doesn't fly. They could have merged the companies from day 1. They didn't.

True, and that fact is not debated.

I'm not trying to debate you. I'm trying to learn the logic behind the objections to the most practical methods of restoring flying to the Delta pilots. Thanks for your thoughts and participating. In my book anyone who cares about scope enough to comment on it is a friend who might be willing to help get it fixed.