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DAL & NWA Labor Strategy Questioned

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FDJ2

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Analyst questions labor strategy by Delta, Northwest

By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 02/11/04

A veteran Wall Street analyst says Delta and Northwest airlines' executives may be making a mistake in holding out for deep labor concessions rather than accepting more modest deals that might mean a quicker turnaround.

"Managements must compromise, in our opinion," , UBS Securities analyst Sam Buttrick said Wednesday in a note to investors. "Each month that passes without a pilot deal is costing shareholders at [Delta] and [Northwest] tens of millions of dollars. Paying above-market wages for a prolonged period to get market wages late is not a noble exercise."

Delta last spring sought a phased-in 31 percent wage cut after American, United and US Airways won steep concessions last year from union employees. The three carriers sought or nearly filed for bankruptcy protection during the negotiations.

Delta's pilots, the highest paid in the industry, have offered a 9 percent cut, plus suspension of a 4.5 percent raise scheduled for May in exchange for a three-year contract extension, to 2008, and later pay increases and job protections.

Buttrick questioned whether Delta or other carriers still can use the same threat, given the airline industry's improving prospects this year.

"Bankruptcy is no longer a credible alternative," said the long-time airline analyst. "There is no such thing as a 'threat' of bankruptcy. It has to be real. And, in our view, it's not. Smart managements won't likely play this card."

Buttrick lowered his first-quarter loss forecast for Delta Air Lines from a loss of $1.75 per share to a loss of $2.30 per share.

Delta's and its pilots' bargaining positions apparently have changed little since they resumed concession talks shortly before Gerald Grinstein, a long-time Delta director, became CEO on Jan. 1.

In recent statements, Grinstein indicated he will not accept a deal that doesn't contain cost cuts deep enough to allow Delta to survive long-term, prompting some analysts to speculate that he might use the threat of bankruptcy to win the deal he wants.

The Air Line Pilots Association said it is leaving the door open for more talks, but is shifting its focus to getting ready for regular contract talks later this year.
 
"Bankruptcy is no longer a credible alternative," said the long-time airline analyst. "There is no such thing as a 'threat' of bankruptcy. It has to be real. And, in our view, it's not. Smart managements won't likely play this card."

Delta doesn't have smart management. This article gives them too much credit:D
 
I think this article has merrit---and they should look at cutting their losses. We are willing to give up pay and some benies, and that will help the overall picture. I wonder if our management will even read this article? (it is in the ATL paper....)

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
We at the Major airlines can only hope that the Delta pilots stay strong and don't cAAve in like another pilot group did, or we will all end up getting paid the lowly wages of the LCC's.
 
furloughfodder said:
We at the Major airlines can only hope that the Delta pilots stay strong and don't cAAve in like another pilot group did, or we will all end up getting paid the lowly wages of the LCC's.

I normally don't engage someone who is supposedly furloughed, but you are obviously just trolling looking for a fight... so I'll play.

Your statement "we at the majors" is incorrect because "we" meaning "you" are not "at the majors" because you are laid off not collecting a dime of your airlines earned income.

Your statement about the "lowly wages of the LCC's" proves you get what you deserve.

BTW - I have been at my LCC for 33 months, and based on my current paystub, with only 3 paychecks so far this year, and considering my 2 pay raises in April, I am projected to gross approx $120,000 this year.... and thats for an airplane that only holds 117 pax.

Yeah.... I'm really slummin" at my "lowly LCC wages".

You're a unhappy fool, that is acting like a tool if you think that I should demand more at my current seniority and aircraft size and time of contract.

We're not Delta, and we will NEVER get Delta wages... period. If I wanted Delta wages... I would have gone to Delta... and been furloughed and bitter... kinda like you.
 
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The pilots and unions at the the two above named carriers have a unique opportunity to finally use the inefficiency of status quo and NRLA to their advantage. Usually, companies drag contract negotiations to at least the 2 or even 3 year mark. WHY? If your banker called you and said the monthly payment on your adjustable rate mortgage is going from $1000 to $1200, But if you wanted to, you could start making the higher payments in two years instead now, without interest or penalty. Would you do it? Even with retro, it makes sense to delay for them.

So now for a change, the companies need to play hurry up and it may be in the union's best interest to stall. Obviously, big pay increases are not on the horizon, but it is an excellent opportunity to recapture 'work rules'.

Typically, managements know they will have to bump pay rates at renewals to cover inflation and b/c that's what pilots focus on. So they usually try to erode work rules to offset pay. So unions on this go around MAY need to allow for some slippage on pay, but reset the work rules for quality of life and givebacks on later contracts.

The obvious reason to expedite is monthly cashflow...once it's gone; it's gone. The other factors are the improving economy and UPS. If the economy improves and a particular airline continues to bleed, the focus will shift from overpaid pilots to ineffective managers. It will probably take UPS another 12-18 to settle its contract, but when they do, it will be psychologically hard to ask you to give up 25% when they just went big.

This is one of the few times in history the pain of delay will hurt companies more than pilots. Use it.
 
-717,
Sour grapes? You and your compnay may be OK today but you are just a mgt blunder away from the street. Ever heard the quote there but by the grace of God go I ? Or...you get what you pay for. Somebody / some group has to make a stand and stop the race to the bottom.
 
FL717 said:
I normally don't engage someone who is supposedly furloughed,

"Who Cares"

I always think of the speech Danny DeVito gave in Other Peoples Money when asked about the people jobs that would be gone when he liquidated the company. "Who Cares" Did they care about your job when they started United Shuttle, Metrojet, Continental Lite? Do you think they sit around worried about the future of SWA, JBLU, ATA or AirTran pilots. These guys would love to see you without a job and will even fly for less money to try to put your company out of business all under their own self concocted ruse that the LCC's made them do it. They will attack you for bringing down wages yet make no mention of the fact that they themselves are willing to work for less, much less. And it is not less because of any LCC it is because their management told them to. Everyone needs to get it straight that we are NOT in this together. Delta has Song and United has Ted. And what is their sole purpose? To get you unemployed. I'm sure Pan Am and Eastern were great airlines but they died and not one other pilot cared. Because now they could get their routes and upgrade quicker and that is all they cared about, themselves. So when it comes to a furloughed pilot or one that is looking a 15 year upgrade........"Who Cares"
 
FL717 said:
I normally don't engage someone who is supposedly furloughed, but you are obviously just trolling looking for a fight... so I'll play.

I am not trolling for a fight. I am just stating my belief. If I were you I would want Delta to hold out also, because when the Major airlines gets pay increases, sometimes it trickles down to the LCC's.

Your statement "we at the majors" is incorrect because "we" meaning "you" are not "at the majors" because you are laid off not collecting a dime of your airlines earned income.

Your statement about the "lowly wages of the LCC's" proves you get what you deserve.

Well, good on ya! You got me there. When I started my aviation career 12 years ago I had one goal: Make it to a MAJOR AIRLINE. Perhaps when you started your career you said to yourself: "Self, I want to make it to a Regional Jet airline and make second tier pay!"....but I doubt it. You probably said the same thing I did. It just so happens you ended up working for a LCC. There is nothing wrong with that. It just isn't my personal goal.

I realize the mind set of most people working at LCC's since they became the media darlings after 911 is: "Look at us! I am so glad I made the right decision and went to a LCC!" The fact of the matter is: most LCC's historically have been "stepping stones" on your way to the Majors, and just because you were working at an LCC when 911 happened you were stuck there. Now you proudly proclaim what a smart decision you made. And if you went to the LCC after 911 it was because they were the only places hiring.

BTW - I have been at my LCC for 33 months, and based on my current paystub, with only 3 paychecks so far this year, and considering my 2 pay raises in April, I am projected to gross approx $120,000 this year.... and that’s for an airplane that only holds 117 pax.

Congratulations. You are definitely making more money that I am right now. I can tell you right now that at 33 months you are flying a bucket load of O/T to be making $120,000 a year. I have all the airlines pay scales...how is that quality of life for ya? Get home much?


You're a unhappy fool, that is acting like a tool if you think that I should demand more at my current seniority and aircraft size and time of contract.

You are right about me being unhappy. Can you blame me? I lost my job. God willing, that will never happen to you. Sorry that you think striving to work for the Majors is being a "fool". I doubt you were saying that pre-911.

We're not Delta, and we will NEVER get Delta wages... period. If I wanted Delta wages... I would have gone to Delta... and been furloughed and bitter... kinda like you.

So you are honestly telling me that if you wanted Delta wages, you would have gone to Delta? What did you do? Interview and turn them down 'cause they pay too good?

PS- You are right....you will never get Delta wages, and thanks to you I may not either.
 
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furloughed dude said:
Canyon,

You are very bitter.. .. Go kick your dog, you will feel better..

Not bitter just happy.

I'd rather just kick you.
 
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furloughfodder said:
PS- You are right....you will never get Delta wages, and thanks to you I may not either.

Well this will be my last post to you there "fodder". I was actually hoping you were someone with some sort of actual intelligence so that I could actually have some fun for a couple days... but you have proven otherwise.

It is very apparent that I have made assumptions about you that are dead on, yet your reply to me proves that you are not even close on most of your observations about me. I just don't have time or energy for people who can't be more accurate with their assessments.

Finally.... I direct your attention to the last sentence in your oh so idiotic reply. I have posted it in bold above. I think it very effectively illuminates your real thought process and agenda in life, and I guess the world OWES YOU something.
 
Man alive! This thread is getting tough. I think this article was mainly about those two Majors just accepting some sort of pay cuts now and going forward. I hope they do that.

FL717,

I am glad you usually don't beat up on furloughed pilots---you obviously understand that you are lucky to be at a stable airline--and I am glad that you can make $120,000 on a 717. Let's hope that becomes the standard on that size of aircraft someday.

Canyonblue,

Easy there fella. Let's not get too cocky here.


Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes: ;)
 
General Lee said:

FL717,
I am glad you usually don't beat up on furloughed pilots---you obviously understand that you are lucky to be at a stable airline--and I am glad that you can make $120,000 on a 717. Let's hope that becomes the standard on that size of aircraft someday.
Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes: ;)

Well you have seen my posts long enough around here to know that I understand how fortunate some of us are, and also that it can all change with the wind.

As far as your comment about hoping $120,000 becaomes standard on that size aircraft.... well.... it is already is standard here at AirTran. With our rigs and protections, the system can be worked just like at most other large carriers. The key is this..... You gotta want to work.. period.

According to our company, our average Captain last year earned $135,000, but thats not good enough to some of the selfish people on this forum. Our highest paid Captain earned over $270,000 last year, but no one wants to discuss that.

Mr Fodder there can pull out his copy of our payscale all he wants, (its probably as incorrect as his mentality) but the fact is my paystub does not lie.

Mr Fodder can point fingers and continue to blame the wrong people for his dilema, but the fact is we all have to be big kids here and manage our own companies and careers. I already did that when I chose not to pursue a career at a "major"... a decision made way prior to 9-11. And if AirTran closes its doors tomorrow, SWA is the ONLY carrier that has earned my trust that I would ever consider trying my luck at.
 
FL717,

I agree with you--in the end--everyone chooses to go where they end up---they could have turned down the offer. And, 4 years ago who would have thought United would be where it is at today? I wouldn't have. Amazing.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
It really is just about what makes you happy..........But consider this,,,First remove all of the gamblers pay(stock options, profit sharing etc...) Now if the new acceptable captain pay scale for a Boeing 717 is 130,000 and the new acceptable captain pay scale for an embraer 170/190 is around 80,000.00 then that puts top airline captain pay scale at around 180,000.00........ SO what does a year of college cost now or a new home in a nice neighborhood or a new car cost or a gallon of gas....Relative to each other these things are right where they were in 1970 and 1980 and 1990 but as a percentage of the "new" pay for airline captains they are substantially higher and getting higher all the time.....Who gives a $hit what the number on your W2 is, what can you get for that number....compared to what your older brother, your dad or your grandfather could get.... That is what matters and oh by the way the answer is a whole lot less.......And with this new" I am happy with what I am getting and you are all greedy and i am just happy to be flying a jet" pay scale it will continue to be less and less...........GET THE PICTURE
 
--in the end--everyone chooses to go where they end up---

Well, most people choose to go where they end up, others just end up where they go.

FL717,

I never said I doubted your pay stub. I am sure you are making $120,000 at second year AirTran pay. I just questioned the quality of life you have. But I guess that is subjective. Some people like to spend as much time at home with their families as possible and make $120,000 a year. Others would rather work every day if they could, and care less about being home. Obviously you fall into the latter category. That’s fine.

You know, I entered this thread with a simple one sentence post. I just said I hoped Delta can hold out for the best possible pay so we all don’t end up with the same pay scales as the LCC’s. If you are so happy with your current pay rate, my post shouldn’t even bother you. Personally I wouldn’t be happy with your pay rate/contract…but that’s just me. I just don’t see why you are so mad that I don’t want to make the same as you.

You summed it all up perfectly in your first post when you said “you are a tool…if you think that I should demand more at my current seniority and aircraft size and time of contract.” That is exactly the WRONG attitude to have, and unfortunately too many of you guys now-a-days have it. Perfectly happy with your current pay and work rules, just happy to have a job, flying a big jet airplane.
 
furloughfodder said:
I just don’t see why you are so mad that I don’t want to make the same as you.

Well lets see. I already said I was done talking to you, but seeing hows this thread has been very entertaining for me, I can't pass. I have a few minutes to kill right this moment, and that I actually love this website, so I'll play with you.

First... you really need to slow down and try and figure out the facts before passing all these assumptions. I will point out all the errors in the statements you write:

1. I never applied to Delta, and have never been turned down for any job I have applied for. I chose to go try AirTran because I was gambling that they would be the next big thing. I also didn't want to be a 10 year First Officer. I was right.

2. I was also gambling that the next airline downturn would occur in the early 2000's due to the non-sustaining industry growth, outrageous union contracts, election, economy, and huge influx of Regional Jets. i was right.

3. You must not be aware of how the airline contract payscales work. If you did you would know that I am not at 2nd year pay. As a 3rd year FO last year I made almost $80,000. This year (my 4th for pay and last year of our contract) right now, if I do not fly another hour, I will project at around $100,000 this year. But I will fly, and generate revenue, and EARN alot more than that.

I will not apologize to you or anyone for what I earn. I like my job, I am happy with my pay, and regardless of what you and "DOGG" think, $120,000 - $180,000 is good money.

By all apearances you could probably earn twice that and still be unhappy.

Finally, you mentioned me being "mad" about your comments. Get real, you should never have that kind of emotion on some internet bulletin board. Going back and reading your posts, amplifies the fact that you think that way, and this means you need to get off the PC and get a life.

Heres hoping you get back to work soon. Remain employed through the good years and the lean years. Upgrade in 3 years. Get paid $120,000 plus a year for your 4th year on IF the company is fortunate and remains in business. And simultaneously have your company remain growing and profitable.

If you can find that, I suggest you try and get hired at that company. I know i would.
 
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FL717 and CanyonBlue

Well said, well put.


Furloughfodder,

Yes we are hiring, maybe FL717 can give you a letter?
 
fl717.... I may very well be happy in that range as well but that still does not stop me from realizing that the numbers are not what matters but rather what I can afford to do with the numbers....that is what so irks me when general statements about dollar figures are made as they relate to salary with no thought given to how that plays out in the long term..enough said though and i am happy that you are happy and I would probably be happy at Airtran as well.....peace
 

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