DAL Mgmt Asks Pilots for $ 1 Billion

[FLB717]

If the Delta guys take a 30% cut they will make for nearly the same rates for 737-200 as AAI 717,737-7. And the 737-8 rates will be nearly the same also. GG is trying very hard to lower his pilot cost in line with AAI, JBLU and SWA.

12Yr, 5Yr AAI Capt. 717,737-7
$153, $120

12Yr, 5Yr, DAL Capt. 737-2 (30%)
$161, $153 Curent upgrade 10-12years?
8Yr Dal 737-2 FO
$105

If you check you will see that AA. USA, are nearly the same as AAI rates for the same hull size. SWA is nearly the same as an AA A300 Capt. Who says you can't be paid well and be a LCC (ie SWA)

 

[sleepy]

Sleepy,


You chose to post my first response rather than my more current one---the second one. I then stated I thought Grinstein would get his 30% (not the original 23%). I don't think Delta will go into Chap 11---and I think Dalpa will dance---but it will be interesting to see what we will get in return for the cash.....

How is the Falcon 50 job going? Any interesting trips?

Bye Bye--General Lee

I really don't blame you for not taking any pay cuts. I see GG getting something now, then going after the rest in CH11. DALPA should just hold the line, let it go into CH11 (where it is headed anyway), then start the concessions from where you are now, not from 30% below where you are now.

I would also expect them to keep coming back for more and more until you are working for JetBlue wages. I expect that ASA will end-up in a concessionary contract as well, that is what the Company is pushing right now, and if Bush gets re-elected, there will be no airline strikes.

The new job is great, I off to school soon.

 

[jarhead]

Saturday, July 31, 2004

Delta asks 35% pay cut from pilots

By John Byczkowski
Enquirer staff writer

Delta Air Lines said Friday that its pilots' offer of a 23 percent pay cut isn't enough to help the airline avoid bankruptcy. Its counterproposal included a 35 percent pay cut and changes to the pilots' pension plan.

Last week's offer from the Delta unit of the Air Line Pilots Association would save the airline up to $705 million annually, but Delta CEO Gerald Grinstein said Delta needs a minimum of $1 billion in savings from the pilots.

Delta did not make the counterproposal public, but in a letter to pilots, Grinstein appealed for cooperation. Delta "proposed certain pension plan changes for ALPA's consideration and input which ... are designed to achieve viability, preserve accrued benefits and provide a sustainable pension plan going forward."

The pilots' union responded late Friday, telling members of the pay-cut proposal. Union spokesman Chris Renkel, in a recorded message, said Delta's proposal lacked specifics on an economic restructuring of the airline and cuts other workers would take. "These items must be addressed" before the Delta pilots can respond, he said.

Delta has lost more than $5 billion in the last three years. The airline has 4,300 employees in Greater Cincinnati, including 900 pilots based at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.

Winning changes to the pension plan could be tough, "tougher than salaries and work rules," said Raymond Neidl, airline analyst for Blaylock & Partners in New York. "Pensions are sacred, especially among the pilots, because they're so large. It's going to be difficult to reform that, but it's something that probably has to be done."

Neidl said if he were a Delta pilot, he would look seriously at Delta's proposal "and decide, do I want to work with management to save the company from bankruptcy, or do I want to take my chances in bankruptcy where it could get even worse?"

E-mail [email protected]

 

[~~~^~~~]

General ( and subordinate officers ) :

The other "stakeholders" who are in section 6 negotiations will not agree to a pay cut to offset above market wages at mainline. Why should we?

We at ASA are unique in this situation, as the lowest paid pilots working for Delta, to find other work which pays more than our current earnings. To sum it up, we have little, to nothing, to lose if Delta disappears.

That might bear keeping in mind as our "self help" date approaches.

The Delta MEC feels that they can unilaterally negotiate other employees contracts!?! I can see why you believe that since your MEC has made an absolute shambles of section 1, everywhere. However, making demands on our pay is a more clear cut violation of ALPA's duty.

You know my vote already.... One more attack from my own union and this place needs to be ( legally ) shut down. Ironically, I don't mind helping out Delta, but ALPA's policy of allowing mainline to control regional pilot contracts makes this Little Bighorn in my view. The indians are getting tired of being pushed around..... ( maybe you can give us a Casino to run in the Atlanta Airport )

~~~^~~~

 

[DAL737FO]

General ( and subordinate officers ) :

The other "stakeholders" who are in section 6 negotiations will not agree to a pay cut to offset above market wages at mainline. Why should we?

I believe the other stakeholders that DALPA is referring to are the creditors. The main problem we are facing right now is servicing debt that is coming due.

We at ASA are unique in this situation, as the lowest paid pilots working for Delta, to find other work which pays more than our current earnings. To sum it up, we have little, to nothing, to lose if Delta disappears.

I agree with you here, however what would keep Delta from just phasing you out or shutting you down and moving the flying to CHQ or some other airline?

That might bear keeping in mind as our "self help" date approaches.

I hope you are not suggesting that you will go on strike. If so I think you are living in denial right now. It's an election year. There is no way any airline of any size is going on strike. I would even be willing to lay odds that, no matter who ends up in the white house after this election, no airline will be allowed to go on strike because of the amount of taxpayer money that has been dumped into the industry.

The Delta MEC feels that they can unilaterally negotiate other employees contracts!?! I can see why you believe that since your MEC has made an absolute shambles of section 1, everywhere. However, making demands on our pay is a more clear cut violation of ALPA's duty.

This always cracks me up. Your MEC negotiates for you and your pilots, if they make a side letter or renegotiate your contract that is your business. You need to stop blaming mainline pilots for your negotiating problems. We have zero ability to control a contract between you and your management. We do however have the ability to negotiate with our management and as of today it includes the most liberal scope clause in the industry. I ask you to show me one other mainline airline that allows as much flying outsourced.

You know my vote already.... One more attack from my own union and this place needs to be ( legally ) shut down. Ironically, I don't mind helping out Delta, but ALPA's policy of allowing mainline to control regional pilot contracts makes this Little Bighorn in my view. The indians are getting tired of being pushed around..... ( maybe you can give us a Casino to run in the Atlanta Airport )

~~~^~~~

Good luck in the negotiations.

 

[DL_Infidel]

General ( and subordinate officers ) :

The other "stakeholders" who are in section 6 negotiations will not agree to a pay cut to offset above market wages at mainline. Why should we?


~~~^~~~

How do you know that a paycut wouldn't go to offset Gay Pride Parades/Floats and scholarships for minorities, etc.?

I actually had a change of heart since my last post. I just fired off an email to my reps directing them to take our current offer off the table in a few days. If GG can't work with our $700+ million, God help us.


DL_Infidel

 

[General Lee]

Check this out. Grinstein wants $1 billion a year for six years from the pilots alone, which equals $6 billion over the life of the new contract. $6 billion from 7500 (or so) pilots equals $800,000 from each pilot. I didn't know I had $800,000. Su-wheat! Let's go party like it's 1999!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLB717]

It only $133,333.00, per Pilot per year, you don't get that much after taxes anyway.

 

[jarhead]

It only $133,333.00, per Pilot per year, you don't get that much after taxes anyway.

Some "funny" math going on here. 35% cut in pay equals just over a tad of one third. Are you saying that the average DAL pilot makes 3 times that amount? $133,333 x 3 = $400,000 per average pilot per year. IF you did make that as an average, then I suppose you'd just have to scrimp by on a lousy $266.666 bucks a year.

Let's go back to school and do the math over again.

 

[NYRANGERS]

$136,000 per pilot of total concession package

Some "funny" math going on here. 35% cut in pay equals just over a tad of one third. Are you saying that the average DAL pilot makes 3 times that amount? $133,333 x 3 = $400,000 per average pilot per year. IF you did make that as an average, then I suppose you'd just have to scrimp by on a lousy $266.666 bucks a year.

Let's go back to school and do the math over again.

$1,020,000,000/ 7500 active pilots=$136,000 per pilot.

Remember, the entire concession package gg wants is equal to $1.02 Billion. A 35% pay cut is only part of the total.

After a 35% pay cut our lowest rate for 737 f/o will be around $74 (second year. All furloughs will be going back at 4 year pay or greater) an hour, 777 Capt. will be around $200 an hour. Around a $40 an hour reduction for 737 and over $100 an hour less for 777 Capt.....

Or about 75 cents per pax per hour on a full 777. Maybe that is how we should be paid. After a full 8 hour flight on a 777 every pax gives the Captain $6 for his/her service. Sound like a bargain to me (for the pax).

 

[sleepy]

My guess is that GG needs the extra $300 million for the management bonus after they get concesions.

 

[General Lee]

Obviously as a "retention bonus"---and then they will all leave.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLB717]

Jarhead, (fitting name, lol, no disrespect to Marines)

Climb back in your BE55 and be the master of your domain (couldn't resist, resistance was futile). If you think about it you would have understood that it is more than just money for the give backs (NYRANGERS gets it) that affect the bottom line and the total of pilot costs and quality of life. Think, B-Fund, A-Fund, Health Care etc. savings just based on a lower Gross Earnings as a percentage, then factor in the real cuts or eliminations of those and other programs. Now you have real money being saved or diverted to MGT pensions. You need an MBA to show you the finer points, no, never mind they would have to ask the hotel clerk for the right answer.

 

[Mikes Apartment]

Personally, I don't think that DALPA should settle for anything less than than US Air rates.

 

[General Lee]

Mikesapartment,


That's great. You guys at COEX should get MDA--Mid Atlantic rates too. Who loves ya baby?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flash 7]

" All furloughs will be going back at 4 year pay or greater) an hour,"


With the productivity changes, I doubt the recalls will continue, In fact there will probably be a lot more furloughs, unfortunately.

 

[General Lee]

Flash7,


Ok, what? Wrong. With this last offer, Grinstein just ensured another 500 early retirements---and he made sure he did it on the last day of the month (last working day--Fri the 30th) so pilots could not call and give 24 hours notice to retire.(the office is not open in the weekends) That only ensured him 1 extra month. (retirement goes into affect usually on the last day of each month)

Also, Gerry stated that he expected to increase our flying 16% in the Fall and Winter--and he even said that negotiating the recall wasn't hard because Dalpa and Delta knew they would need pilots. Delta also requested 50 recalls for October, not the 30 that was in the agreement. They asked for more. Please respond Flash----please.....( I can't wait for your next clever assumption)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

" All furloughs will be going back at 4 year pay or greater) an hour,"


With the productivity changes, I doubt the recalls will continue, In fact there will probably be a lot more furloughs, unfortunately.

I know it looks that way from the outside, but there are a few unique situations with regards to Delta.

Like the General said, there has (so far) been no talk of slowing or stopping the recall from either side. The recall deal was said to be relatively easy to negotiate.

Delta has had an extra year to see what was going on at other Majors' and this bought our senior pilots time to asses the situation. Since I was hired in 2001, I have moved up over 2000 numbers. American Airlines pilots did not have much time from threat of Chap. 11 to concessionary deal.

It's almost as if Delta has found a way to furlough from the top. Although now Delta is doing what they can to hold on to as many pilots as they can. They also announced a need for 50 pilots in October insted of the agreed number of 30. Speculation is this number will stay at 50 for a few months and then go up in the Spring.

There is talk of a 16% capacity increase for the Fall (strange time to do this, but what do I know) and rumors of MD-11's comming back to fly more international routes. The MD-11's alone would bring a need for around 300 pilots. There are some Airbus rumors going around, but nothing more than your typical rumor.

I think we are going to see around an $850 million deal for six years. This will open up more favorable lines of credit and new airplanes (replacing old ones) will help reduce maintainence costs. Maybe we can even get free airplanes like JetBlue (Kidding).

Anyway, behind all the doom and gloom, there are more and more frequent signs of growth and hiring in the future. Unfortunatley much of the recovery will be on the shoulders of the Delta pilots. Hope we get some ROI.

NYR

 

[GogglesPisano]

Hey lowecur, what's that screen name mean -- lowoccurrence of getting puss y?

LOL.

By the by, I'm curious about a few posts on this thread...

let me start with some suppostions:

1. DALPA represents all DAL pilots.
2. All flying done by DAL is controlled by DALPA.
3. DALPA chooses to allow some less desirable flying to be performed by subcontractors. They allow a certain amount of aircraft with fewer than 70 seats, and some 70 seat aircraft, to be flown by non DALPA pilots.
4. Some of these subcontracting airlines are bought by DAL, some are not. Some of these pilot groups are represented by ALPA. Some are not.

Question1: How is it that some of the subcontractors question why DALPA --unfairly or unfairly -- "limits their careers?" If you start with suppositions 1 and 2 above it's obviously inherent in the system. DALPA is protecting DAL pilots' flying. Limiting non-DAL pilots' flying is a byproduct but so is the whole idea of a seniority list that limits the career expectations of people who are not on the seniority list. Sorry, I just don't get the whole RJDC thing.

Question2: Flipside. If DALPA has intimated in anyway (and I have only innuendo from posters to go on) that these subcontractor pilots should take pay cuts -- how can they justify this? That seems unfair.

 

[General Lee]

NYR,

I haven't heard much about the MD-11s, but I do know that atleast three of them have leases until 2015. It would be great to see them back in the air again, instead of paying $15,000 a day for each to sit at Goodyear.

I don't know what the exact number will be---but it will be interesting to see how many guys retire on Sept. 1st, and to see what will be done about the pension shortfall. Grinstein seems to want to do something about that.

Also, the $850 million number might be close---but it may even go a little higher. I also don't think anyone wants to go the Chap 11 road---and it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

We are looking forward to your return, and maybe you will be an FO on that MD-11 soon.....(hopefully not for Jetblue E190 wages.....)

Bye Bye--General Lee