DAL DC9's?

[Noserider76]

Sorry To the Midwest folks.

Whoever ends up with those airplanes should really find a place for the pilots that want to move as well. Looks like some kind of BS corporate shell game to me.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Sorry for the stupid question..
DC-9, MD88/90, B717 - all the same type rating as far as the FAA is concerned, right?

Correct.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Midwest just dumped 16 717's on Boeing so they can all go to the highest bidder!

Guys....RA has chum in the water and you are right there ready to grab a hook.

Bill gets it. Midwest flies NWA code and will do the same for Delta. Here's some new airplanes. 717 replacements that will be large RJ's in Delta codeshare service which are not included in the 255 large RJ limit. As I explained in my reasons for voting against the JPWA, this is another hole in NWA scope that now is a hole in DAL scope.

INDIANAPOLIS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 3, 2008--Republic Airways Holdings (NASDAQ: RJET), announced today that its Republic Airlines subsidiary has signed an agreement with Midwest Airlines to provide 12, 76-seat Embraer E170 jets operating as Midwest Connect with initial service beginning October 1, 2008.
"We are very pleased to partner with the Midwest Airlines team and look forward to a mutually beneficial relationship," said Bryan Bedford, Chairman, President and CEO of Republic Airways.
"Republic is a partner that can help position us for a return to sustained profitability and future growth, deploying an aircraft that is fuel efficient, state of the art and strategic for this new energy environment for the U.S. airline industry," said Timothy E. Hoeksema, Midwest Airlines chairman and chief executive officer. "We look forward to working with the Republic team in this new partnership."
Key commercial terms of the agreement include:1. Under the Airline Service Agreement ("ASA"), Midwest will purchase all capacity at predetermined rates and will directly pay or reimburse Republic for industry standard pass-through costs.
2. The first aircraft will be placed into service on October 1, 2008 and the last aircraft on November 15, 2008.
3. The agreement has a term of ten years. However, at Midwest's option, and at any time prior to June 1, 2010, Midwest can elect to convert the ASA into a long term aircraft lease. The 12 E170's would be leased from Republic for the remaining duration of the ASA and operated on the Midwest Airlines operating certificate.
4. All fuel will be purchased directly by Midwest and will not be charged back to Republic.
5. Republic made a one year term loan to Midwest in the amount of $15.0 million, with an additional loan commitment of $10.0 million, based on the achievement of certain milestones.

Yet another way that trying to scope out flying does not work. We have to scope it IN. All E170 flying via Compass staple. Oh I forgot ... we'll get them next time.

 

[General Lee]

Bill gets it. Midwest flies NWA code and presumably will do the same for Delta. Here's your new airplanes, 717 replacements that will be large RJ's in Delta service which are not included in the 255 large RJ limit:
Yet another way that trying to scope out flying does not work. We have to scope it IN. All E170 flying via Compass staple.
Oh I forgot ... we'll get them next time.
More and more assured that my NO vote was the right thing to do.

Do we have a MKE base? Does NWA? Not really, although they have tried a few times to very little success. You are making more out of this than it needs to be. They are actually taking seats out of MKE, going away from the low cost MD82/MD88 flying that represented their "long haul" flying that hurt the rest of us. Instead, they will be a small niche carrier for business people who want to go NONSTOP into MKE. That's it. They won't be a Delta Connection, they instead will connect Hartford to Millwaukee. They are dumping all of their MD82s/88s, and 16 out of the 25 717s. They are bringing in less planes total (12 old E170s that are currently parked at PIT---ex Mid Atlantic birds that are the oldest E170s out there). I don't think they will bother us much, UNLESS we planned to have an intergalactic hub between our MSP and DTW hubs.....?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Do we have a MKE base? Does NWA? Not really...

Instead, they will be a small niche carrier for business people who want to go NONSTOP into MKE. That's it. They won't be a Delta Connection, they instead will connect Hartford to Millwaukee.

I don't think they will bother us much.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General:

There are several angles to this.

First, alarm bells should be going off that airlines are replacing 717's with E170's. That tells you what management thinks of the E170, they prefer it to a 717. (now do the math on a DC9, or MD88 and you realize why I keep an eye on the numbers)

Second, MKE is a de-facto hub which is undergoing a transition from competition to outsourcing via codeshare. MKE serves Montreal, Pittsburgh, Detroit, MSP, Souix Falls, Grand Forks, Grand Rapids, Washington, Atlanta, Little Rock, Orlando, Cancun, Memphis, Baton Rouge, Austin, Phoenix, Colorado Springs, Vegas, Grand Rapids, San Diego and San Francisco.

It is similar to the feed Alaska provides Seattle. (I'd like to compare the numbers for AK pax and ASA pax, we might learn that Alaska's about to be a de-facto DCI carrier).

It is not an "inter galactic" hub, but it is enough of a threat to Detroit that NWA paid to climb in bed & keep AAI out.

We don't compete with our codeshare partners, we just put our passengers on their airplanes.

Third, Delta is a owner of MidWest (or will be soon)

Fourth, if Delta were to furlough, these large RJ's are not subject to the scope limits, or scope sanctions.

It isn't the end of the World, but it does illustrate how there are some end runs that management can make around our scope unless we start scoping flying in.

 

[General Lee]

General,

No rain here.....You don't even have clouds in your sky for rain!!

Everything is roses in your Delta world...you and everybody else getting on here bragging about planes that don't exist on DELTA'S CERTIFICATE are just making noise. If you are ready to guzzle RA's jizz, then go for it....just stop making claims on stuff you and I know nothing about (Reference your point about being in meetings)

BTW, only rumor I have heard is that we are going to the desert and cutting cargo doors in the Concorde so we can do JFK-LHR same day delivery subcontract for UPS....

Sorry To the Midwest folks. The General is busy dividing your items like when JC was attached to a cross.......great people made a great airline.....even with your planes, we can't duplicate it!!

Ridiculous. Yeah, no clouds in my sky.... Man, you are a real downer. Do you have a "case of the Monday's?" as the movie version of yourself said? I think you do. Guess what? We have a new joint contract (that you voted No on probably), and we are going to merge and get bigger. Enjoy it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General:

There are several angles to this.

First, alarm bells should be going off that airlines are replacing 717's with E170's. That tells you what management thinks of the E170, they prefer it to a 717. (now do the math on a DC9, or MD88 and you realize why I keep an eye on the numbers)

Second, MKE is a de-facto hub which is undergoing a transition from competition to outsourcing via codeshare. MKE serves Montreal, Pittsburgh, Detroit, MSP, Souix Falls, Grand Forks, Grand Rapids, Washington, Atlanta, Little Rock, Orlando, Cancun, Memphis, Baton Rouge, Austin, Phoenix, Colorado Springs, Vegas, Grand Rapids, San Diego and San Francisco.

It is similar to the feed Alaska provides Seattle. (I'd like to compare the numbers for AK pax and ASA pax, we might learn that Alaska's about to be a de-facto DCI carrier).

It is not an "inter galactic" hub, but it is enough of a threat to Detroit that NWA paid to climb in bed & keep AAI out.

We don't compete with our codeshare partners, we just put our passengers on their airplanes.

Third, Delta is a owner of MidWest (or will be soon)

Fourth, if Delta were to furlough, these large RJ's are not subject to the scope limits, or scope sanctions.

It isn't the end of the World, but it does illustrate how there are some end runs that management can make around our scope unless we start scoping flying in.

Well, first off, MKE is not a big city. Maybe they figured out that E170s fit the models for business travel in MKE. What does NWA primarily use at their de-facto hub in IND? Primarily CRJs. Maybe that is all that market can sustain. Do you know a lot about MKE and the business community there? I don't know really, but since Chicago is down the road and ORD has plenty of flights, MKE probably doesn't need a big airline, with big planes. The CEO of Midwest just figured out what high oil could do to the passenger loads at MKE. These planes also came with a loan, and Midwest probably needs it too. USAir got a loan from Air Wisconsin, and where are those planes now? Those 50 seaters are probably getting parked quick.

Did NWA bid for MKE to keep Airtran out of MKE? My guess would be probably. Good move. Can Airtran afford MKE and Midwest now? I doubt it. Why hasn't Southwest gone into MKE? Probably because they already have a large hub at MDW. Sounds like we won't have many problems at MKE in the near future, and Midwest now figures that a few 717s (to MCO, TPA, LGA, DCA, FLL, etc) can handle the loads, and E170s and SKW CRJs can do the rest.

IF Delta were to furlough, would those E170s fly as "Delta Connection?" I highly doubt it. They will be flying to the same Midwest cities the 16 717s are flying to now that will be gone. (The SkyWest CRJs are probably going to continue flying to their current cities)---and there will be a net loss of 4 planes. Again, one main reason they chose the E170s could be because it came with a loan. Those planes have been sitting in PIT, not making RAH any money. Sometimes you have to spend money to make it. In the end (in 1.5 years), maybe it will make sense and not cost them ANY MORE money at RAH.

So, I don't see them as a Delta Connect, and they aren't a Northwest Airlink now, rather a code share partner. Alaska may code share for us into SEA as you say, which might help immediately if we launch a larger SEA base without enough of our own planes to feed us. There will be growth elsewhere too, especially in the INTL arena, and other than CVG I don't see much downsizing at other DL hubs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'll be adding ATLCADC9B to my card in PENTRY as soon as it lets me.

"ATLCADC9B"?

cough! won't exist cough!

No more separate Block and Reserve.

New subject: Call me for gouge.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

General:

There are several angles to this.

First, alarm bells should be going off that airlines are replacing 717's with E170's. That tells you what management thinks of the E170, they prefer it to a 717. (now do the math on a DC9, or MD88 and you realize why I keep an eye on the numbers)

Second, MKE is a de-facto hub which is undergoing a transition from competition to outsourcing via codeshare. MKE serves Montreal, Pittsburgh, Detroit, MSP, Souix Falls, Grand Forks, Grand Rapids, Washington, Atlanta, Little Rock, Orlando, Cancun, Memphis, Baton Rouge, Austin, Phoenix, Colorado Springs, Vegas, Grand Rapids, San Diego and San Francisco.

It is similar to the feed Alaska provides Seattle. (I'd like to compare the numbers for AK pax and ASA pax, we might learn that Alaska's about to be a de-facto DCI carrier).

It is not an "inter galactic" hub, but it is enough of a threat to Detroit that NWA paid to climb in bed & keep AAI out.

We don't compete with our codeshare partners, we just put our passengers on their airplanes.

Third, Delta is a owner of MidWest (or will be soon)

Fourth, if Delta were to furlough, these large RJ's are not subject to the scope limits, or scope sanctions.

It isn't the end of the World, but it does illustrate how there are some end runs that management can make around our scope unless we start scoping flying in.

Amen Fins.......

I used to jump on Fins and his ideas about scope before he was on this side of the fence.....good points raised!!!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Ridiculous. Yeah, no clouds in my sky.... Man, you are a real downer. Do you have a "case of the Monday's?" as the movie version of yourself said? I think you do. Guess what? We have a new joint contract (that you voted No on probably), and we are going to merge and get bigger. Enjoy it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Rumor number 2.....

ER category doing more domestic and Lubbock layovers are on the horizon.....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

MKE is a city of 1.6 million people. It is a lot bigger than people realize.
Putting out code on a MEH flight does the same thing that putting our code on an ASA, Air France, KLM, or NWA flight does. It allows people to book Delta tickets on it. (Look out below)

 

[Papa Woody]

Fact is that DAL has the ability to smooth out the higher operating cost of the 9's with their revenue from the International ops.

Drinkin' Kool-Aid?

Delta is hemorrhaging sh!tloads of cash. It is not making money from "International Ops."

Just like Song was a huge flop, so was the international expansion.

 

[General Lee]

MKE is a city of 1.6 million people. It is a lot bigger than people realize.
Putting out code on a MEH flight does the same thing that putting our code on an ASA, Air France, KLM, or NWA flight does. It allows people to book Delta tickets on it. (Look out below)

No, I think you are also thinking way too much about this. MKE is not a large city of interest, since NWA has failed there a few times, and the only INTL service it has is from Toronto. Midwest is SHRINKING. The planes are getting smaller, and they will have fewer. Sure, people can book tickets on us via them, but that is the nature of a codeshare. If MKE businessmen want to fly to Rio, then they can fly a Midwest E170 to ATL, and then connect onto our 767ER. Before that codeshare, they probably would have taken an Eagle E145 to ORD, caught an AA 757 to MIA, and then an AA 767ER to Rio. Now, we can capture that ellusive MKE businessman.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Drinkin' Kool-Aid?

Delta is hemorrhaging sh!tloads of cash. It is not making money from "International Ops."

Just like Song was a huge flop, so was the international expansion.

HUH? I think you are wrong. I guess you didn't see that we had a profit this Summer, and overall we had a profit last year. I think you are smoking some weed. Get off the computer and go to bed, it's past your bedtime.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Rumor number 2.....

ER category doing more domestic and Lubbock layovers are on the horizon.....

"That Bill Lumberg-----Fantastically funny.....Three thumbs up"---General Lee

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General:

There are several angles to this.

First, alarm bells should be going off that airlines are replacing 717's with E170's. That tells you what management thinks of the E170, they prefer it to a 717. (now do the math on a DC9, or MD88 and you realize why I keep an eye on the numbers)

Second, MKE is a de-facto hub which is undergoing a transition from competition to outsourcing via codeshare. MKE serves Montreal, Pittsburgh, Detroit, MSP, Souix Falls, Grand Forks, Grand Rapids, Washington, Atlanta, Little Rock, Orlando, Cancun, Memphis, Baton Rouge, Austin, Phoenix, Colorado Springs, Vegas, Grand Rapids, San Diego and San Francisco.

It is similar to the feed Alaska provides Seattle. (I'd like to compare the numbers for AK pax and ASA pax, we might learn that Alaska's about to be a de-facto DCI carrier).

It is not an "inter galactic" hub, but it is enough of a threat to Detroit that NWA paid to climb in bed & keep AAI out.

We don't compete with our codeshare partners, we just put our passengers on their airplanes.

Third, Delta is a owner of MidWest (or will be soon)

Fourth, if Delta were to furlough, these large RJ's are not subject to the scope limits, or scope sanctions.

It isn't the end of the World, but it does illustrate how there are some end runs that management can make around our scope unless we start scoping flying in.

Fins,

Let's look at the potential SEA ER base and the Alaska codeshare you are worried about. First, what does NWA have at SEA now? Here it is for SEP:

INTL--1 daily A332 to NRT, along with an additional A330-300 on Monday and Saturdays. One daily flight to AMS via an A332, that continues onto Mumbai. One daily A332 to LHR. So, there are normally 3 daily A330s, with an extra one twice a week.

DOM--3 757s daily to DTW, 6 daily 757s to MSP, 1 A319 to MEM, 1 753 to HNL, 1 753 to Kahului.

That's it. Not bad, and a fairly small pilot base for A330s I would imagine.

I can only assume that our future ER base there (from rumors I have heard from high ups) would be modeled off of Air Canada's Vancouver base, since they use 767ERs too on some Asian routes, and they are right up the road in YVR. Let's see where Air Canada goes to Asia from YVR: Beijing(7ER),Hong Kong (A343),Osaka (7ER), Seoul(7ER),Shanghai(7ER),Sydney(77LR),and Tokyo(A333).

So, they go to 7 cities in Asia (including Sydney), along with Hawaii. I can see us adding 5 or 6 additional flights from SEA, probably using ERs that are pulled from JFK when we replace them with A332s that go to Cairo, Amman, and Tel Aviv eventually. We may add a few more cities too, like Nagoya, or Guangzhou, whatever is thought could be profitable. What I am stating here is that we will probably feed SEA from all of our hubs (including JFK, LAX, CVG, DTW, MSP, ATL, MEM, and SLC) with 757s or bigger, and throw on any possible connections from a codeshare partner like Alaska Air (although SEA may have a lot of O&D traffic for Asian pax), and I don't see that big of a deal. How many seats total for 5 or 6 ERs that will already be fed from our own inbound planes from our own hubs? I don't see a huge codeshare with AK, but hey, it will help fill the seats with high paying pax. That is good.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Truckdriver]

Rumor number 2.....

ER category doing more domestic and Lubbock layovers are on the horizon.....

Actually I've heard that the ER category and domestic category might become one category. CAL does it this way and it requires lots less reserve guys. I guess the cost savings is worth training everyone. I think CAL even has the 767-400 in their 75/6 category. Wouldn't it make sense for us to have just one category instead of three?

 

[tbkane]

Fine as long as the pay is 767-400 for the entire category...

 

[General Lee]

Actually I've heard that the ER category and domestic category might become one category. CAL does it this way and it requires lots less reserve guys. I guess the cost savings is worth training everyone. I think CAL even has the 767-400 in their 75/6 category. Wouldn't it make sense for us to have just one category instead of three?

The NWA 757 guys fly both INTL and DOM, and you have to wonder how they would seperate it if they decided not to do it there too. I guess they could rebid the categories for MSP and DTW also, but that would be a waste. I would much rather have a combined INTL and DOM 757/767 category like NWA. I hope we adopt their way of thinking on that. The ATL ER already flies domestic trips in the Winter when there isn't enough Europe flying to go around.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

Actually I've heard that the ER category and domestic category might become one category. CAL does it this way and it requires lots less reserve guys. I guess the cost savings is worth training everyone. I think CAL even has the 767-400 in their 75/6 category. Wouldn't it make sense for us to have just one category instead of three?

Management would love it. Less reserve guys = less pilots. Less pilots = not good.