Crab & Kick or Slip

[agpilot34]

You and me both!! I really miss it, but I enjoy the pipeline patrol pretty well, too. What part of the country did you fly in?

AAhhhh........ Ag Flying...Best job I ever had...Bar none..


Cat Driver

 

[Cat Driver]

I started in southern Ontario in the tobacco fields with a J3 Cub then Super Cub , Stearman, Pawnee and the Hughes 300.

Anyhow most of my Ag flying was in S. Ont. Canada many moons ago.....

I did one season in western Canada but the fields were so big that didn't really count.

Cat

 

[bobbysamd]

Crosswind landings

I personally was always more comfortable using the wing-low (slip) method for crosswind landings, probably because I did not practice the crab method much. It is fine for Cessnas, Pipers, etc., but is not how you land the so-called big iron.

As was discussed on the General Forum thread about the 737 landing at LGA and was explained to me many years ago by a very nice 737 pilot, you land heavy equipment in crosswinds by crabbing and kicking it straight before touchdown - the reason being that if you used wing-low on a 737 you might scrape the bottom of a nacelle. Pax comfort is another reason to use the crab method.

Students should be taught both methods, but, if they have a goal to fly large equipment, they should be trained well on the kickout method.

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

This really is a funny thread.

I would really like to see someone land a light aircraft without using cross-controls (slip). Oh wait, my pre-solo private pilots do that. I don't usually see it after solo. Actually I wouldn't sign them off if they did that. Bear with me here and read everything that follows.

The reason a crab and kick (as it has been referred to) works in the heavy metal is because they are heavy. The aircraft has enough inertia (momentum) that throwing in the rudder at the last minute doesn't generate any lateral movement before the aircraft touches down.

In a Cessna, if you stomp on the rudder in the flare but don't add ailerons you will be heading off into the weeds. It will respond very quickly.

As was mentioned before, all cross-wind approaches involve a slip at some point. For some pilots it is five feet above the runway and others it is 1000 feet. The reason instructors teach a slip from a higher altitude is that it gives the students the whole final approach to work the hands and feet. Throughout final approach they are using their hands and feet to maintain centerline and it is good practice. The follow-on step in the learning process is the move the point where the slip begins closer and closer to the runway. Eventually the student will be crabbing until they are ready to flare. At that point they add rudder and opposite aileron and guess what...they are slipping with a wing low touchdown.

As a side note, I landed both the Saab 340 (28,000 lbs MLW) and Avro RJ85 (85,000 lbs MLW) by "kicking out" the crab into a SLIP which would have me wing low into the wind at main gear touchdown.

It is true that nacelles on the larger aircraft can drag but they have momentum on their side so rudder input close to the runway does not allow enough time for drift to develop.

Those of you light aircraft pilots who say they don't slip when they land in the cross-wind should try it without adding aileron. I bet it won't be pretty. I bet you add opposite aileron in when you "kick" it but just don't know it.

For those of you who say thay have to slip for an extended time down final. Work at gradually delaying the point on final where you start the slip. Eventually you will get to the point where you don't establish the slip until flying over the numbers. At that point you are doing what has been referred to here as "crab and kick".

And for the Chief Pilot or instructor or whatever he calls himself: If he expects me to fly an ILS or a Hold in a slip, he is an idiot. I don't usually judge people that way but someone in a position like that should not be spouting off idiotic statements like that.

 

[minitour]

As was mentioned before, all cross-wind approaches involve a slip at some point. For some pilots it is five feet above the runway and others it is 1000 feet. ...Eventually the student will be crabbing until they are ready to flare. At that point they add rudder and opposite aileron and guess what...they are slipping with a wing low touchdown.

I've come to the conclusion over the past few days and specifically today (wind 280 at 14G22 on the way in tonight landing RY 21) that I in fact do what you have just said...or what I would call "crab and kick".

I actually asked my instructor yesterday to keep an eye on things and tell me what he saw. When we talked about it after the flight today, we determined that I was "slipping" but only once I began the flare.

I've always been told to put the "aileron into the wind and opposite rudder" to land in a cross wind and (thankfully!) was left to decide where to do that on my own.

And for the Chief Pilot or instructor or whatever he calls himself: If he expects me to fly an ILS or a Hold in a slip, he is an idiot. I don't usually judge people that way but someone in a position like that should not be spouting off idiotic statements like that.

After having the aforementioned (double word score) conversation with my CFI today, I had a "chat" with the "check airman" (one of the asst. chiefs) that did my instrument ride about what was so horrible as to be screaming at me prior to my starting the flare.

His "opinion" is that it is wrong to be less than 500 feet and not lined up with the runway, which is why he screamed at me about it. I tried explaining to him that I always "kick" out the crab during the "roundout" which is when I add aileron to correct and he told me (and I quote!) "if you do that on your multi ride or -II ride with me, you will not pass".

So I guess that's where he stands huh?

Anyway, I'm going to make arrangements to take the check rides with another check airman. Something about being 500' AGL on an instrument approach with a 300' AGL MDA and busting because I'm not slipping just doesn't agree with me.

So moving on, thanks to everyone for the input! I just saved myself one if not two "busts" (well...not really since it's a self-examining school, but you know what i mean...) and probably two to three weeks of being out here by reading the posts here, checking it out and dealing with the issue (which I now believe isn't necessarily related to my landings, but the opinion of the "examiner"...pitty...).

So, thanks a million...my wife and I both appreciate it!

-mini

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

After having the aforementioned (double word score) conversation with my CFI today, I had a "chat" with the "check airman" (one of the asst. chiefs) that did my instrument ride about what was so horrible as to be screaming at me prior to my starting the flare.

His "opinion" is that it is wrong to be less than 500 feet and not lined up with the runway, which is why he screamed at me about it. I tried explaining to him that I always "kick" out the crab during the "roundout" which is when I add aileron to correct and he told me (and I quote!) "if you do that on your multi ride or -II ride with me, you will not pass".

So I guess that's where he stands huh?


-mini

I am guessing this "Assistant Chief" has never flown anything bigger that a seminole. If he tried to tell an instructor at any of the major Simulator Centers or an airline that he needed to have the nose lined up with the runway 500 feet up they would laugh in his face.

By the way: I looked at the ATP PTS and it doesn't say anything about nose aligned with the runway. In Part 121 (airline) operations we always referred to a stabilized approach below 1000 ft Above Touchdown. It meant on speed, at a realistice descent rate and aligned with the runway. In practical terms it meant that if there were no outside forces to move the airplane from this track (wind gusts, turbulence etc) the aircraft would fly to the touchdown zone with minimal input from the pilot. This isn't realisitic but you get the point. I don't consider having to wrestle the ailerons and rudder for 1000 feet very stabilized and in a large aircraft that is a lot of work. The autopilot doesn't fly with a slip so why do I. At 200 feet when you break out turn off the autopilot and begin the flare. I bet...no I know the aircraft is crabbing until I turn the autopilot off.

Best of luck to you. Hope everything comes out all right. See what the PTS says about approach to landing.

 

[Cat Driver]

and he told me (and I quote!) "if you do that on your multi ride or -II ride with me, you will not pass".

.......................................

He should have his authority to do rides cancelled and be sent back to basic training school as a janitor........forever...

Have you spoke to the FAA about this moron?

Cat Driver

 

[Ralgha]

This really is a funny thread.

I would really like to see someone land a light aircraft without using cross-controls (slip).

Go watch an Aircoupe (sp?) land. You can't cross-control them.

 

[minitour]

Have you spoke to the FAA about this moron?

Cat Driver

No...I'm not gonna go there. I'll be talking to the Dir. of Ops and the Chief Instructor about it, but I'll let them deal with it. I'm not going to get caught up in the politics of contacting the FAA...plus this is going slow enough as it is. The 12 week course is almost at 6 months, so anything I do right now has to be "ass kissing" to try to get this done.

In Part 121 (airline) operations we always referred to a stabilized approach below 1000 ft Above Touchdown. It meant on speed, at a realistice descent rate and aligned with the runway. In practical terms it meant that if there were no outside forces to move the airplane from this track (wind gusts, turbulence etc) the aircraft would fly to the touchdown zone with minimal input from the pilot. This isn't realisitic but you get the point. I don't consider having to wrestle the ailerons and rudder for 1000 feet very stabilized and in a large aircraft that is a lot of work. The autopilot doesn't fly with a slip so why do I. At 200 feet when you break out turn off the autopilot and begin the flare. I bet...no I know the aircraft is crabbing until I turn the autopilot off.
*chop*
Best of luck to you. Hope everything comes out all right. See what the PTS says about approach to landing.

I agree with you on a stabilized descent. As long as I'm riding 55 knots down medium-to-short-final (in the 152) and my direction of motion is lined up with the runway centerline, I don't think it should matter.

With regard to the crosswind landing, the commercial PTS does say:
5. Maintains a stabililzed approach and recommended airspeed, or in its absence, not more than 1.3 Vso, +/-5 knots, with wind gust factor applied.
9. Touches down at or within 200 feet (60 meters) beyond a specified point, with no drift, and with the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway centerline/landing path.
10. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the approach and landing sequence.

So yes, they want me lined up with the centerline....at touchdown....which I firmly believe in. No way in hell do I want to land sideways or land straight and being blown to one side of the runway. That's just a recipe for bad things to happen. But it doesn't say anywhere about being lined up at a certain altitude or anything.

I don't think it will be a problem. The option to take the check rides with an actual DPE is always there if the chief instructor tells me just it's wrong. I just can't see wrestling with the rudder all the way down final...but that's just me.

It's probably just as easy for me to do it just to get the check ride done and then do it the other way when I'm doing it "for real", but...I don't know...we'll see how it goes with the director of operations and chief instructor.

Thanks again guys!

-mini

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

Go watch an Aircoupe (sp?) land. You can't cross-control them.

Ya got me there! I haven't flown one but I would like to see one land in a crosswind. Are the rudder and ailerons connected by bungies or a solid connection? How well do they handle crosswinds?