Corp.

[CXAV8]

Just looking for a debate. What's a better place to spend your flying career.

Big Department(i.e. GE, BP,TAG,Ford etc.) or small One plane operators(i.e. Mr. Big, Daddy Warbucks).

 

[banned username 2]

DEFINATELY a BIG department (Fortune 100)

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ditto...
big company no doubt!

P.S. TAG is not a big company, just a mangement company - comprised of many small companies....if you need any info - PM me!

 

[bigD]

How big are typical flight departments of large companies? I guess it of course depends on the company, but on average?

 

[banned username 2]

How big are typical flight departments of large companies? I guess it of course depends on the company, but on average?

My Company has 7 aircraft and 28 pilots, 13 mechanics & 5 dispatchers, we are a $25-$35 Billion company...

I know 3M is about $15 Billion and they have I think 5 G-V's...

Really all depends on the company...

BP/Amoco is like a $160 Billion company and they have only 3 aircraft 2 G-IV's and a G-V

 

[CXAV8]

I agree with flying for a big department. But are bonuses better, upgrades quicker, ease of operation better at small departments. It can be frustrating to be locked in a large slow moving flight dept. What about pay and benefits? Schedule? etc.

 

[banned username 2]

I agree with flying for a big department. But are bonuses better, upgrades quicker, ease of operation better at small departments. It can be frustrating to be locked in a large slow moving flight dept. What about pay and benefits? Schedule? etc.

Typically at the large departments Quality of Life is much better, a schedule usually exists and benefits are usually complete...

 

[fokkerjet]

Just to make things a little more interesting, why is a big company better?

I work for a large corporation with a fleet of large corporate jets, 28+ pilots, 10+ flight attendants, 4 dispatchers and 15 +/- maintenance techs. I've also worked at a mom and pop company with just 1 King Air and 2 pilots.

There are days when I miss that King Air because life was so much simplier than it can be at a large corporation. For one thing, little to no politics were involved. On the King Air, not only did we dispatch and fly the airplane ourselves, we also had to clean it and supervise maintenance on it. At the large company, we just fly. With the politics in place here, I'm only allowed to fly the airplane. If I see something that needs to be done, I have to go through channels to get something to happen, even if it's as simple picking up a missing glass and bringing it to the airplane from the hangar.

On the other hand, large corporations usually pay very well, have great benifits, retirements and other perks. You also usually find yourself in some very nice pieces of equipment, flying worldwide.

As with any job, it's always a matter of opinion as to which is better, but the bottom line is, what do you feel is better for you?

 

[mike]

Small corporate flight departments are good. The problem is finding a company that is all business. Our companies use the plane as a business tool. Many companies don't need an aircraft. The boss buys a toy to transport the few on weekend ski/fishing/golf trips. No, thank you.

Quality of life issues are held high with our people and the annual bonus is generous. Don't look for quick upgrades in todays job market. We haven't hired/lost a pilot in over three years.

Good hunting.

 

[bigD]

The more I read about the crap going on in the airlines, the more I'm drawn to the corporate side of the fence. I think it's pretty cool to be one of maybe 30 pilots in a company, as opposed to one in a couple thousand.

Is it possible to end up on a somewhat regular schedule while flying corporate? I'm sure it's like anything else in aviation where it'll be a little crappy as I'm moving up through the ranks, but once I get some time and seniority under my belt, can I expect a halfway normal family life?

 

[JetPilot500]

Is it possible to end up on a somewhat regular schedule while flying corporate? I'm sure it's like anything else in aviation where it'll be a little crappy as I'm moving up through the ranks, but once I get some time and seniority under my belt, can I expect a halfway normal family life?

At my place, we get to choose days off and request trips. So that does provide some predictability. Many of our trips are scheduled weeks in advance, but they do change or cancel occasionally. Trips do "pop-up" occasionally, but we usually know about it a few days in advance. In corporate you MUST be flexible. You must be willing to change your plans from time to time. You can't let it get on your nerves too much when your passengers are late or early. We are Limo Drivers, so we work with their schedule (when safety allows).

Corporate definately has its advantages over airlines. It isn't for everyone. I know several airline people who could never be a corporate pilot. They are unwilling to throw a bag or deal with passengers. That kinda attitude will never work in corporate. You must be good with dealing with people and customer service is everything.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

 

[fokkerjet]

Our company has "scheduled" flights, which make up about 50% of our flying schedule, the remainder being on-demand. Our flightcrews have scheduled days off per month, but we do not bid for trips in the same sense as airline pilots would, we are randomly scheduled to meet the demand of the schedule. Usually at the end of the year, we are pretty evenly divided between the on-demand and scheduled trips.

I am not aware of any corporations at have a trip bid process, and that's not to say there isn't one, corporate usually just doesn't have regular flights that would accomidate that type of process.

 

[banned username 2]

I am not aware of any corporations at have a trip bid process, and that's not to say there isn't one, corporate usually just doesn't have regular flights that would accomidate that type of process.

We don't bid our trips like the airlines, but we can request trips (and 99% of the time we get them)... So in a way we bid them I guess... If you don't request any particular trips you are scheduled on trips to meet the demand of the schedule (around your days off), they try to balance out things as much as possible...

Our schedule is fairly predicatable... it seems that usually if our trips change they either shorten or cancel, rarely do they lengthen or pop-up short notice (in 6 years I have done 3 "pop-up" type trips and I had about 4-5 hours notice... ALL of them were due either to a crew member calling in sick or an aircraft breaking down and we had to go rescue the pax with another plane)

 

[cvsfly]

We are Limo Drivers, so we work with their schedule (when safety allows).

Corporate definately has its advantages over airlines. It isn't for everyone. I know several airline people who could never be a corporate pilot. They are unwilling to throw a bag or deal with passengers. That kinda attitude will never work in corporate. You must be good with dealing with people and customer service is everything.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

For the time being, I would rather be a limo driver than a bus driver.

 

[JayDub]

CXAV8,

This whole thread cracks me up! It is like debating whether you'll hit the lottery for $10 Million, or $50 Million. The number of positions out there for quality Class A operators are very limited. Let's use Falcon Capt.'s numbers for our average. They have 7 airplanes and 28 pilots. Do you know how many Fortune 100 companies there are? That's right, 100! Now multiply 100 times 28 and you'll end up with 2800 pilots flying for fortune 100 companies. Out of 1,000,000 actively employed ATP rated pilots (the last I knew) chances are not in your favor.

Personally, I flew for a fortune 1000 company. I thought I was stepping into the "big time". Believe me when I tell you you'd have a better relationship with mgmt. at a regional. At least then you could get a union to back you every time your C.P. asked you to fly a broken airplane. I flew for a guy worth $1.6 Billion and most regional Captains made more than me. I was about to get a Challenger 604 type, which would have put me all the way into the "fifties". Whoo-hoo.

All in all, I liked the corporate lifestyle and mission. My problem was this: if I wanted to be a peon, cubicle bound, corporate slave, I would have gone that route. If you want to fly for a living, be real selective. Unfortunately there are a lot more companies that count on you being desperate, than those that count on you being selective. For sure, get everthing in writing.

Best of luck.

JayDub

 

[irapilot]

Of course Mr. JayDub, there are some of us that don't "qualify" for the airlines, we don't fit the accepted profile, didn't wear the right suit, don't do well in strictly regimented outfits (did my time in the U.S.N.), don't have a 4 year degree or just don't like being on "the schedule". I think it all comes down to it is what you are into or what your goals are - corporate flight departments vary considerably from the good, the bad and the ugly as do the airlines, the whole profession has changed and will keep changing, you just have to find a niche for yourself and be as happy as you can.

Best of luck

 

[Flywrite]

JayDub,

You may want to recheck your figures. the FAA Airman Registry shows just over 140,000 active ATP holders in the US today. Still a pretty big number, but well short of a million. When you figure that a percentage of these active pilots do not fly professionally, have no desire to, or are retired and the odds get a bit better. Still a tough market, but definately easier than winning the lottery.

 

[hyper]

civilian, 3000+ hrs. and capt. for jetblue? oooooooo k.

 

[CXAV8]

Jay-Dub all that cynicism and negativity must serve you well. It's unfortunate that you were the lowest paid Challenger Cpt. in the country. The thread was started to gain viewpoints, not tips on how to get on with a Fortune 100(FYI I work for a large one). Hope your negative posts continues to provide enjoyment.

 

[banned username 2]

Personally, I flew for a fortune 1000 company. I thought I was stepping into the "big time". Believe me when I tell you you'd have a better relationship with mgmt. at a regional. At least then you could get a union to back you every time your C.P. asked you to fly a broken airplane. I flew for a guy worth $1.6 Billion and most regional Captains made more than me. I was about to get a Challenger 604 type, which would have put me all the way into the "fifties". Whoo-hoo.

All in all, I liked the corporate lifestyle and mission. My problem was this: if I wanted to be a peon, cubicle bound, corporate slave, I would have gone that route.

Sounds to me more like you were flying for this "Individual" then the company... I am guessing it was a one ship operation with probably 3 pilots... better than 30% of the trips were personal trips for "the Boss"... Plus you were expected to do additional duties such as clean the plane, and extraneous things for "the Boss"... In these kinds of jobs you tend to almost be a personal Concierge for "the Boss"

Yeah, Yeah, the guy owned a Fortune 1000 company, but I bet you were "His Pilots" flying "His Airplane"... Even if your paycheck came from the company...

"I was about to get a Challenger 604 type, which would have put me all the way into the "fifties". Whoo-hoo."

Mid-50's? This give a little more insight on the class of the operation... We start our first year guys at $80k...

Just like in every industry, there are good jobs and bad jobs... sorry to hear you had a bad one...

 

[CitationCapt]

Changing the tune

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JayDub


All in all, I liked the corporate lifestyle and mission. My problem was this: if I wanted to be a peon, cubicle bound, corporate slave, I would have gone that route. If you want to fly for a living, be real selective. Unfortunately there are a lot more companies that count on you being desperate, than those that count on you being selective. For sure, get everthing in writing.

___________________________________________________

JayDub,

Be careful what you say about corporate life. Nothing is permanent in the airline industry. You may find yourself TRYING to find a job back in the corporate world again.

CC

 

[DiamondJim]

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to side with Jaydub on this one. It's not hard to see that there are a lot more bad operations out there than there are good ones. Once you've been in one of these bad operations it's real hard to get the taste out of your mouth..... In my case I thought I won the lottery when hired into my BeechJet position, now I'm not so sure..... The CP is a lying bag o' sh!t, there is no such thing as a schedule, and the pay sucks to say the least. At first I was signed on to get the type in the BE400 and in six months when we upgrade I'll get typed into the Challenger! Well that was a lie as there is no Challenger, never has been, never will be. Huge raise in July!!! OOPS, that was a lie too. Never got a raise, never will... Supposed to get two weeks vacation every year.... guess what.. Oh yeah you can take off, but you have to pay for a contract pilot... They are making $400 a day... a three day trip would put a big hurt on me!!! It started out at about 70% business and 30% personal but that didn't take long to turn around and now it's about 97% personal. I talked to someone in the company the other day that said he couldn't get on the plane if his life depended on it..... He's th VP of sales!!!!!!! Now the owners wife booked the plane every weekend for the rest of the year and into next. Destination is 30 minutes away and we have to stay with the airplane in case she wants to leave early. Christmas morning we have to fly her son to a camp somewhere.

I would wager that more than 80% of the corporate jobs are like this. I congratulate those who have found the fortune jobs. I also congratulate Jaydub for using his time in indentured servitude to move on to a real job. I have learned several lessons from this misadventure and plan to move on as soon as I find someplace to call home. Some place that doesn't suffer the same pitfalls. I just wanted to give some insight to those who think all corporate is lifestyles of the rich and famous. This has been a good place to build some quality jet time and see how things could be if managed properly.

Now I've sent resume's to almost every one in the NBAA guide who has more than three planes and haven't heard a word back. Thanks for letting me vent and I welcome any insight into finding the dream corporate job.

-DJ

 

[CitationCapt]

Here's a previous post

____________________________________________________
The corporate culture is different, depending on the size of the company and the management. You are wearing many hats during your work day. Larger flight departments with adequate staff can have advance trip notice, but smaller departments like mine are at the mercy of the company travel department and a pager with a good battery. Be ready to accept any managerial, concierge, or other duty with a smile.

And yes, getting a job you are happy with (and your management is comfortable with having you in) is the hard part. If you do the research and become acquainted with those who make the hiring decisions, then you start building on those contacts, much the same as any professional sales person would do. You dress the part and you make regular contacts with an updated resume'. You offer to help out when other staff are sick, on vacation, at recurrent, etc. Better yet, you seek a job flying for a charter department nearby or in the same building. Your contacts see you on the ramp regularly and are able to evaluate you from a distance discretely.

What complicates all of this is that your residence is not anywhere near the flight departments of your focus. Right down the reasons why you should move nearby or the reasons why you can't move. Discuss any move in detail with your spouse, if this is a major factor, then find some common ground to make the change.

As mentioned in previous threads, find a NBAA member directory. This guide is an invaluable tool in finding the operators you want to focus contacts with. Lastly, remember that some of the best jobs out there aren't advertised. What applies in other fields applies here.
__________________________________________________

Sorry Diamond Jim that what sounds like your first corporate experience seems shoddy.

There are many good small operations out there contrary to popular belief, but you need to do the leg work to find them. Obviously a large well run operation is a goal for many of us, but limited opportunities exist. Don't give up on corporate just because of your first experience in this field.

Good luck in your future endeavors CX8V8 and DiamondJim.

CC

 

[Rick1128]

There are good and bad corporate operators out there. And the size of the operations does not seem to matter. Though the larger ones tend to be better. I have flown a single plane owner that was almost 100% personal and was treated extremely well even though I was just a contract pilot. I have flown for a two jet operation that was 90% plus business. There I was treated reasonably well. And would have no problems about going back if asked.

On the other hand, I also have worked for a 2 plane owner that his trips were 99% personal and 1% business. He'd get in my face and demand to be flown out of Aspen in the summer time 1000 to 2000 pounds over structual GW. Thats not even considering performance limits. Then he would get upset when I quit on the spot. And of course he would treat the flight crew as his personal n*****rs.

The impression I get from a friend of mine who flys for a major corporation is that their flight department makes the chacters of 'Dallas' look like candidates for sainthood.

A corporate flying job is like any other flying job. It is what you make of it and depends on the company. Some are very good. Some are bad. And the majority are somewhere in the middle. Sometimes you will have to make a stand. It's not impossible when little issues like safety are concerned.

 

[JayDub]

In my post, as is often the case with me, I didn't fully convey my thoughts. In my reference to being a cubicle worker, I was speaking of the office politics, not of extraneous duties. The guy next above me in seniority was a serious brown-noser to the chief pilot and senior management. He would nearly knock me over to get some face time with the chairman or the CEO. As you might have been able to tell, I don't exactly hold back from saying what I think. I say what I believe.

My flight department had two aircraft, a brand new Hawker 800XP, and at the time a challenger 601. I was hired for my Hawker experience, because the other five guys had none, and it would make insuring them easier. The Challenger was the "carrot". My problem was, I didn't care to fly the "heavy metal", as the chief piloted had counted on. The Hawker was over 90% business where as the challenger was 30-40% pleasure for the chairman.

The intent of my post was merely to cite a counter view to what I was observing on this forum. Not every job is a fortune 100 company. Even those that are, may at some time turn ugly. Like I've mentioned before, I've flown with two guys from Daimler-Chrysler. They lost their jobs after almost 15 years of service, while people with 1 year of service were retained.

I truly wish no one harm. However, there are unseen pitfalls I feel need to be discussed. Like I mentioned previously, (with very few exceptions) you have to get any deal in writing. Whatever you get, must be upfront, for the most part as well. Notice Diamond Jim's story. To do this, you have to have a little bargaining power, which reads as experience. Until then, you are usually at the mercy of whoever you can get on with.

Come to find out in my case (in my opinion), the chief pilot only hired me to prove his point he couldn't hire a young guy for fear either that person would fail or go to the airlines. He had buddies he wanted to hire, and needed to prove he had to do it his way. So, he reneged on his promises he made me to get me to leave. These promises included responsibility and pay, as well as others. I had promised him two years of service. I missed my commitment by 18 days, whereas my replacement only lasted ten months.

JetBlue came along at the perfect time for me. I was able to get another flying job with out moving. Often times, an operator in a smaller market won't hire you away from a regular corporate operator on that field. Many of the top executives are on each others boards, and don't want to embarass themselves. That's why it's a lot more common to go from a charter operator to a regular corporate gig.

I meant no offense to any of the corporate pilots that posted to this particular thread, or this forum in general. I do, however, stand by my post.



JayDub

__________________

CXAV8 Just looking for a debate.