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Corp. pilots and 'other' job duties ?

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VA AV8R

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2003
Posts
76
I wanted to get a feel for how many of you out there have extensive duties OTHER than flying, chart updates, looking after required maintenance, etc. ---> I'm talking about work that has nothing to do with the upkeep of an aviation department.

I was approached by a company owner to fly his new turboprop, manage it, work in the office when not flying, work with his people on the road when traveling, manage the building of a hangar, etc. I almost laughed but became irate instead, trying to defend the 'professionalism' of our profession. I was told 'lots of pilots do this' and I strongly disagree. On top of it all, the salary was good, but no where near what I would consider fair based on the job description. Why do so many millionaires expect pilots to work for free? If I hire an accountant to do my taxes, I don't expect him to mow the lawn when he's done...
 
snpower,

How do you think he got to be a millionaire? Getting folks to work a lot and not paying them much to boot.

I can only speak from my experience but we don't have any non aviation related duties in our dept. There is plenty to do to keep up on all the job related stuff to begin with. Ground duties even when aviation related can distract from safe operations in the cockpit if carried too far. Why do you think that Doctors and Lawyers have the highest insurance rates? Primarily because they can compartmentalize well and focus on the task at hand.

Stick to your guns.
 
Our only non-flying duties are Jepp updates. We print all of our approach plates from Jeppview so the only charts that need to be updated are RNAV, High and Lo enroute charts and Chart notams (for each airplane). We have all the charts split up among the pilots so no one pilot is doing hours and hours of updates.
 
well, the sad part is you may have tured down the job, but some stupid pilot will come along and be happy to do it.

just the way it is..

"other"duties I have heard may include updating Jepps, scheduling training, hotels, rental cars, training new pilots...etc...

but working with his folks on the road??? FU&K THAT!!!
 
When I was corporate, our single airplane (Lear55) department employed three pilots and one part time mechanic. The only aspect of running the department that was farmed out was heavy maintenance.

As the junior of three pilots, I was responsible for: aircraft cleaning (shampooing the carpet to exterior waxing) acquiring all aircraft catering, keeping the hanger catering stores full (soft drinks, snacks, cups, napkins, ice, etc.) updating all charts (NOAA, the boss was too cheap to buy Jepps), rent cars, motels, on road catering, the bosses limo/town cars, aircraft tug operator, minor tug maintenance, hanger grounds keeping (water, mow, etc.), hanger cleaning (scrub the floors, clean the crapper, etc.), helping the mechanic with routine inspections (panel remover, etc.), carrying bags, begging a crew car to drive the boss somewhere when he was too cheep to pay for a limo, picking up his luggage from the motel when he had business until afternoon and didn't want to pay for an extra day in the Palmer House, driving his business associates if need be, etc, etc, etc,

Oh yeah, all that and be on the road for 20, or more days a month.

The next senior pilot was responsible for all of the maintenance management. He did everything from helping the mechanic to buying power by the hour, or whatever plan we were using. He also helped the department manager with other management duties and sometimes mowed the lawn.

The department manager and senior pilot managed the operation. He took care of budgets, training, aircraft equipment purchases/upgrades and the like. He functioned as scheduler, dispatcher, pilot, chief wine drinker, and other important duties.

The job carried a decent amount of prestige, but we had no life.
We had no business duties other than operating the flight department and providing any on the road transportation for the boss. We weren't expected to accomplish anything other than running a self sufficient airport operation.

I quit because I thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence. I was right. There are jobs available that actually allow a pilot to be a pilot.

regards,
enigma

PS, BTW, If I had to go back to pure corporate ops, I would gladly trade non-aviation related business duties for all of the hanger related monkey work. In other words, working for a boss that wants you to help in the office is not the worst job that a pilot could have. Good Luck.

One more PS, the job sucked because the manager valued the prestige of the job more than he valued home time or money. In defense of myself and the other pilot, the job description changed on us after we were hired. The department was downsized and duties added after the fact. We were sort of shanghied into slavery instead of volunteering for it.
 
enigma,

There are as many corporate flight department philosphies as there are corporate flight departments.

We have three internal pilots and a maintenance manager. The maintenance manager has responsibilities related to maintenance. The other two pilots have some written job descriptions that outline not only flying responsibilites but may have safety or scheduling related duties.

We have no "face time" requirement. My motto is if you don't have anything to do, don't do it here. Most of the out of the cockpit duties can be performed away from the office.

We are in a manual rewrite situation right now so we all have some areas to provide input on but the bulk of that resides on my shoulders.

We average 2.5 days/week flying including overnights as individual pilots. This may not be typical but I just thought I would add a little more info to the mix here. The key in corp aviation is to find a good one to work for. Those may be far and few betweeen but so are the calibre of pilots that we employ.

From where I sit it beats the heck out of the 121 type of ops but that is just my view. I take pride in what we do and how good we are at it. The folks we support are some of the best in the world, not a wiener in the group and they make us feel very appreciated. That surely helps. We pay well above scale and that helps as well.

Coke, Home Depot, BellSouth are local examples of departments that the only way to get in is for someone to die and fill that seat. Must have something going right there.

For the fellow that started this thread I hope he will be able to find a good job with a good department.
 
Astra Guy said:
enigma,

There are as many corporate flight department philosphies as there are corporate flight departments.

.

For the fellow that started this thread I hope he will be able to find a good job with a good department.

Astra, I totally agree. My point must have turned into a rant. I meant to say that there are worse corporate pilot duties than having to deal with non-aviation duties.

I would quit Spirit in a heartbeat if I could find one of those sweet departments close to home. Nothing against 121, If I was at SWA I wouldn't think of quiting.

regards,
enigma
 
Enigma,

I do have to agree that SWA seems to have the best of most worlds. Need to get some of the so called legacy types to ride in the back and pick up on some customer service pointers. In addition their pilots take their flying business seriously but they don't appear to take themselves too seriously. Pax like that.
 
I didn't mind doing some aircraft-related duties when I flew corporate. Jepp updates (we had Q-Service), buying supplies for the airplane (I just bought all the stuff I liked . . . my brand of scotch, Bass, Becks, etc . . . truth be known, we drank most of it ourselves anyway). Scheduling rental cars and our rooms, and, occaisionally doing the same for the pax, although their secretaries usually did that for them. . . . when you're a one airplane operation, you just do that stuff. No crapper cleaning or mowing the bosses' lawn . . . . Somebody did not break those people in right. Since you are gone a lot, when you are not flying, you need to be home with your family, not putting in "face time". Sheesh.

I had a good time flying corporate. I miss it sometimes (ski season, especially). The 121 life is much better, though, for me. Being able to leave your flight case in the bag room and be "untouchable" is truly great. Not having to be accessible to the pax or the Flight Dept. Manager is very important to me.

What I learned in my five or six years as a corporate jet pilot was that there are OK jobs, good jobs, great jobs, and, at the very bottom, "Battered Pilot Shelters" posing as flight deprtments.

The trick is getting to the good or great ones, and avoiding the rest.

I am not really sure what even the "best" ones can give me that i don't have right now. 17-19 days off per month, up to six weeks vacation, not to mention there are plenty of schedules that have a run of ten days or so off, if you need some time in between vacation . . . . The only things I am missing are empty legs, playing turistico and the ski trips, and I can do that on my own time.

Some international flying would be nice, but I think it would get old pretty quick . . . better to do that with my wife. Downsides to my present 121 job- when i transition to the left seat, it will be a few years before I am holding the "sweet" schedules again, but I will still be working less than half the month until then.

Oh, the other down side to 121 . . . when you are a corporate guy and you are forced to change jobs, you usually get a better job and another type rating . . . in the airlines, you usually start over at the bottom.
 
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Nothing wrong with additional duties. They make great negotiating leverage for more money. I know a chief pilot of a three bird dept that pulls down $225K a year because he gladly increases the scope of his work when the boss asks it. He also makes sure he gets paid to do it. He is now an indispensable part of the organization. I would bet that even if the plane goes, he would still have a job if he wanted it.

Where you screw up is doing it just to keep the job. The conversation should go, ok, increase in responsibilities, increase in pay... no pay , see ya.
 
duties

snpower,

The additional duties at this job were probably precipitated by a previous flight department manager setting an impossible precedent becasue the word "no" was not in his vocabulary. My advice to you is to take the job only if the owner will agree to your complete control of the department and no micro-managing from above. Additional duties will be based upon additional salary and only if they do not impede upon flight department related duties and safety.

If this owner is anything like some of the boobs out there I've had the displeasure to meet, he will say no and you will walk away. This is why he will be in a never ending search for "yes" men lap dogs who will do his bidding. He will find them but is a good candidate for making the headlines in a future NTSB reporter. Running a flight department should be left to professional pilots...not micro-managing owners who really can't afford an airplane to begin with.

Good luck,
 
"Running a flight department should be left to professional pilots...not micro-managing owners who really can't afford an airplane to begin with".



Truer words have never been written. Well put.
 
snpower said:
I wanted to get a feel for how many of you out there have extensive duties OTHER than flying, chart updates, looking after required maintenance, etc. ---> I'm talking about work that has nothing to do with the upkeep of an aviation department.


Dude, it depends on how much of a prick this guy is and how structured the Flight Department is. I didn't fly "corporate", but I flew Parts 91 and 135 in a previous life.

For example, I just flew with a captain that flew a C-90 for an owner operator. It was cool until included in his salary were duties like going to the bank, opicking up dry cleaning and other gofer duties. It happens because King Air owners always say they're going to buy a Citation to string you along.

As a cunning pilot, you've got to get the most hours and experience for the least effort and move on. Believe me, if you glance around behind you, there is a lined formed of wet-behind-the-ears pilots waiting to take your place.

Tailwinds...
 
Thanks to all for your advice, which echoed my own thoughts. I said NO to his original offer, then I asked for (1) aviation department manager money (2) written job description (3) no micro-managing (since this guy has an obvious tendency to do so). He said NO so here we are. He hired a guy with zero corporate/charter experience to run his plane and get a 135 certificate. I am flying the owner around until training is complete and he is driving me nuts!!!!!!!!!! I'll wait for someone who respects pilots and the profession, thank you.
 
He's got as guy with no 135 experience trying to get him a 135 certificate?

Man, usually you have to wait a long time to see a payback like that get delivered.

Sounds like you did yourself a real favor to stay out of that situation.

As for the idiot who took the job . . . he will be in a hell of his own making.

Good luck. Got any leads on a real job? Maybe someone here can help.
 
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:11:52 +0000
Message: Company will be purchasing a Beechjet 400 in the coming weeks that will be
based in the Atlanta, GA area. Anyone who is current and available for pilot
service can send contact information and required daily rates to:

Jay Jacobs
Fax 770 205 6882
[email protected]

snpower,

This came the NBAA Jobs board. I noticed you are typed on this aircraft. Not sure where you are but if you would consider Atlanta then there might be some possibilites. Lots of Beechjet/Diamond operators here.

One other note. If you are in a serious job search you need to become a member of NBAA. Cost is low/year but can reap some real rewards, the Jobs Board being just one of them. New jobs are posted more frequently than weekly for different types of aircraft.

Our department uses external pilots in the Diamond series occasionally and I would consider using you in the mix if you are in the Atlanta area. Let me know how else we might be able to help.
 
Let me get this straight. A pilot is a pilot, and doing any other duty is degrading and beneath the high, lofty status of being a pilot? What absolute claptrap. Such highmindedness. I stand blinded in the dazzle of sparkeling epaulets and polished caps. I'm just not worthy.

Is it common to perform other functions in addition to flying the airplane? As a corporate pilot, I also served as Director of Maintenance.

As an air ambulance pilot, I also served as director of maintenance, restocked the airplane, serviced oxygen, visited hospitals for public relations, vacumed the airplane, rented hangars and established a satalite operation, serviced and mowed runways, changed engines, painted, tuned up, and adjusted, and a host of other duties.

Flying charter in everything from light piston single engine airplanes to large multi engine turbojet airplanes, I've carried bags, polished, waxed, cleaned, restocked, maintained, etc. I've sold flights, managed the books. Written training manuals, operations manuals, etc. Instructed, and so forth. Pretty much any related duty, right down to scrubbing facility toilets in smaller operations.

It's okay though, because I'll never be worthy of the same high mindedness with which some apparently feel themselves gilded.

As an air tanker pilot, I have flown, washed, waxed, repaired, loaded, you name it. Often covered in oil, with burned hands, arms and fingers, cuts from safety wire, bruises, and bloodshot eyes from very long hours. I can't imagine anyone in that segment of the industry being foolish enough to say, "but I'm just a pilot."

As an ag pilot, I've turned wrenches, loaded and mixed chemical, visited fields and examined crops, counselled with farmers about both chemicals, crops, insects, and weeds. I've plowed fields, worked on farm machinery, performed various acts of husbandry in pursuit of agricultural work...all associated with flying as a lowly crop duster.

As a flight instructor, I performed maintenance, taught ground schools, gave scenic rides, put up displays in malls, did presentations to high schools, towed airplanes through parades, kept the books, helped manage the office, and so forth.

While flying skydivers, I packed parachutes, maintained the airplanes, helped teach, visited schools and various groups to talk about skydiving and sell skydives. The same while towing gliders. While working with Civil Air patrol (albeit a volunteer project), all of that and more. Same for volunteer work with EAA.

Aside from flying duties, I've had all manner of other types of work. I flew a Sabreliner to detroit once, and spent a week measuring railroad tracks with engineers in the inner city...the same engineers whom I'd flown to that location. I flew mechanics into the field, and then spent days and nights repairing airplanes alongside them.

I started a banner towing operation, and soon found that I spent a lot more time maintaining the letters, visiting prospective clients, setting up tows, selling advertising, meeting with the media and the FAA, and all other duties associated with that operation. I didn't own it: I started it and managed it for someone else. But I had all the duties associated with every aspect of the business. Pilots who wanted to fly for that operation were expected to do the same.

Are you shocked that additional duties may be be required of a pilot outside flying? The purist might suggest that a pilot need not get his or her own weather, calculate his or her own weight and balance, or do any other duty that might be beneath the lofty station of one privileged to manipulate the controls. But I don't think so. I have returned from flights into the brush, covered in mud and soaked through to my underwear, only to be assigned the duty of driving the passengers to a hotel or other place of lodging.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever accepted employment in which my job description was "Pilot, Only. Manipulates the controls of the aircraft, performs preflight functions, provides direction to flight crew. Performs no manual labor, does no other assignments which might soil his precious hands."

Perhaps some yuppie scum larvae have had that honor, but not lowly old me.
 
avbug said:
Let me get this straight. A pilot is a pilot, and doing any other duty is degrading and beneath the high, lofty status of being a pilot? What absolute claptrap. Such highmindedness. I stand blinded in the dazzle of sparkeling epaulets and polished caps. I'm just not worthy.


Hey Bear man,

Just to clarify, I do not consider myself above the tasks you mentioned. Neither do consider myself avove the tasks I mentioned earlier, what I do consider myself above is being treated like a slave by a boss whom thinks that he owns me 24/7. I don't know why, but I'll speculate and say two issues are at work to convinve owners that we are supposed to be theirs 24/7. First, the reason that most aircraft owners have the plane is to control time, which means that it is reasonable to expect the pilots to work odd/long/on-call hours. Our willingness to do so trains the boss to expect us to be at his beck and call at all times. Secondly, because so much of a corporate pilots time is spent sitting at an FBO, deep down in the bosses mind lies the thought that he is not getting his moneys worth, so he tries to find something else for us to do.

To me the extra duties become a problem when they interfere with my already minimal time off. I don't mind spending a week on the road, it's part of flying an airplane. I do mind spending seven days on the road, spending the eighth day cleaning the hanger, spending the ninth day maintaining the airplane an making reservations for the next trip, then spending days ten through seventeen back on the road.

regards,
8N
 
avbug,

I have one simple question. Are you happy in your current flying position?
 

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