I have recently been thinking of going to a commuter in the northeast. I am crrently flying F.O. as a contract pilot for a corporation. lately i have been handing out resumes in the area and may have a few leads for a full time position. does anyone have any insights on wheter going to a regional is a good move or should i stay where i am right now. i really just want a steady salary to get on with my life...still living at home. i enjoy the corporate flying a bunch, but im in a split in the road. anybody with experience please in both feel free to give your opinion and past experience.
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corp or airline?
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johnny taliban
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TRBojet
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It all depends on what's really important to you. In my opinion, I've started leaning towards corporate as well. I've flown for a regional and a major, and am now in my first "corporate" job (part 91 only). So far, I love it. Both have their advantages/disadvantages, but like I said, you need to choose what's the most important in your life. With the airlines, you have more predictables: like scheduling, pay and benefits. But even now, those predictables are being screwed with. And over a period of time, you will probably make more money than at the average corporate job. It mostly depends on what type of aircraft the corporation operates, and the size of the flight department. However, unless you would be living in one of the airline domiciles, you will guaranteed be GONE on ALL of your "on-days", including reserve. With corporate, you will have the advantage of starting at a higher pay scale, and most have good benefits as well (although I'm fairly certain you would have free travel benefits...) I like my corporate job because there is just two pilots flying one aircraft, so we have a lot of leeway on how the flight department is being run. And once we get a fill-in third pilot trained, we will have the advantage of scheduling hard days off. The pay is fairly good, and I'm finding myself home much more of the time than I was at the airlines, which is best for the family. That is the most important for me, so it's a good fit.
Make sure to ask the right questions when interviewing for the corporate job: starting pay and scheduled pay increases, hard days off, estimated hours flying, average nights from home. etc. I'm sure there's many more higher experienced pilots on this board who have seen both sides of the fence that can help with your decision (however, remember that you did post this on the "Corporate" section, so some answers might be biased.)
Good luck with your decision.
Make sure to ask the right questions when interviewing for the corporate job: starting pay and scheduled pay increases, hard days off, estimated hours flying, average nights from home. etc. I'm sure there's many more higher experienced pilots on this board who have seen both sides of the fence that can help with your decision (however, remember that you did post this on the "Corporate" section, so some answers might be biased.)
Good luck with your decision.
I just left a national airline (ASA) for a great corporate job. I advise you to find a great corporate job and avoid the airlines.
I had a previous job with a Fortune 100 company that absolutely sucked. I then went to a an international air cargo airline, and was furloughed after a year there. I landed at ASA, which was promising outstanding growth and fast upgrades, then this little terrorist attack came and ended all of that.
Post 911, I will tell you that the airline business will never again offer the outstanding pay and benefits that it once did. You can see the shape that all of the majors are in. The concessions that they have given will set their collective barganing agreements back 20 years.
If you go to a regional or national airline, the best you can hope for is to move to an LLC (JB, Airtran, SWA, etc...). The pay that you will make at a regional will never be more than $100K per year (after about 10 or 15 years or if you go into the training dept.). At an LLC's you will not have a retirement (just a 401K or some stock options...P.S. dont ever own any airline stock) and will only make around $150K per year (after about 10 or 15 years).
The best thing that I can see about an airline is that you will eventually have a more stable schedule, you get travel benefits (which are not so great anymore with the aircraft being so full of discount travlers), and the union will help you keep your job if you are the type of idiot that gets into trouble a lot and usually gets fired from regular jobs.
If you can find a good corporate job your starting pay should be around what you would make after 10 to 15 years at a Regional Airline. You should be making more than an LCC Captain makes after 10 years by your 5th year in a good corporate job. The corporate benefits are much better than anything that you will get at any airline. In corporate flying you will have a less stable schedule (although some operations run shuttles that offer an airline type schedule), you could be subject to a corporate downsizing, and if you are the kind of idiot that get into trouble a lot you can be more easily fired without the union to protect you.
I had a previous job with a Fortune 100 company that absolutely sucked. I then went to a an international air cargo airline, and was furloughed after a year there. I landed at ASA, which was promising outstanding growth and fast upgrades, then this little terrorist attack came and ended all of that.
Post 911, I will tell you that the airline business will never again offer the outstanding pay and benefits that it once did. You can see the shape that all of the majors are in. The concessions that they have given will set their collective barganing agreements back 20 years.
If you go to a regional or national airline, the best you can hope for is to move to an LLC (JB, Airtran, SWA, etc...). The pay that you will make at a regional will never be more than $100K per year (after about 10 or 15 years or if you go into the training dept.). At an LLC's you will not have a retirement (just a 401K or some stock options...P.S. dont ever own any airline stock) and will only make around $150K per year (after about 10 or 15 years).
The best thing that I can see about an airline is that you will eventually have a more stable schedule, you get travel benefits (which are not so great anymore with the aircraft being so full of discount travlers), and the union will help you keep your job if you are the type of idiot that gets into trouble a lot and usually gets fired from regular jobs.
If you can find a good corporate job your starting pay should be around what you would make after 10 to 15 years at a Regional Airline. You should be making more than an LCC Captain makes after 10 years by your 5th year in a good corporate job. The corporate benefits are much better than anything that you will get at any airline. In corporate flying you will have a less stable schedule (although some operations run shuttles that offer an airline type schedule), you could be subject to a corporate downsizing, and if you are the kind of idiot that get into trouble a lot you can be more easily fired without the union to protect you.
General Lee
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Ian,
I was in your shoes back in the mid 90s and ended up taking the path down the corporate side of aviation. And in todays aviation world, I'm extrememly glad I ended up here.
While there are pros and cons to any job, in my opinion, a good corp. flying position is the place to be in aviation at this time.
The PROS from my perspective:
-A small (6 pilots), relaxed, professional department.
-Fantastic (604 and X), new (less then 3 yrs), clean, well maintained, modern a/c.
-Great trips. Several day trips to London, Paris, San Diego, Scottsdale, Naples, Montanna on a generious expense account.
-I feel I have job security at my current job. Atleast as much or more than, your average airline pilot.
-Salary and schedule is great. I don't make as much as an AA captain, but we only fly approx. 300-350 a year.
-We generally fly the same corp. people and they are SUPER people to fly! Very courtious and friendly. The boss always calls if he is running 20 min. late!
The CONS:
-You are a jack of all trades. Loading bags, checking on rental cars, flight plans, hangar and office duties, cleaning a/c on the road, etc. Not really a con, but you are doing more then flying the plane. Sometimes, flying feels like its 2nd to everything else.
-Schedule: We are not on call 24/7, but I do "cover" alot of weekends and holidays.
-Bad trips: We spend alot of time at TEB.....enough said!
I know not all corp. jobs are like this, but there are alot of good, descent positions available. I do think it is harder to break into the corp. aviation due to it being a smaller world. Usually, you have know someone and then back it up w/ your abilities. One other thing, not all F500 flight departments are what they appear to be on the outside. I know of a couple of large companies that can't keep pilots. You have to find what fits you......
Good luck,
SCT
PS- Any of you corp. guys/ gals have problems w/ your D.M.? I am beginning to think alot of these guys have a hard on for pilots. Our DM does anything to get the pilots in trouble w/ corp. They must think we are a lazy, drunk, golf playing, idiots.........well he is partly correct.
I was in your shoes back in the mid 90s and ended up taking the path down the corporate side of aviation. And in todays aviation world, I'm extrememly glad I ended up here.
While there are pros and cons to any job, in my opinion, a good corp. flying position is the place to be in aviation at this time.
The PROS from my perspective:
-A small (6 pilots), relaxed, professional department.
-Fantastic (604 and X), new (less then 3 yrs), clean, well maintained, modern a/c.
-Great trips. Several day trips to London, Paris, San Diego, Scottsdale, Naples, Montanna on a generious expense account.
-I feel I have job security at my current job. Atleast as much or more than, your average airline pilot.
-Salary and schedule is great. I don't make as much as an AA captain, but we only fly approx. 300-350 a year.
-We generally fly the same corp. people and they are SUPER people to fly! Very courtious and friendly. The boss always calls if he is running 20 min. late!
The CONS:
-You are a jack of all trades. Loading bags, checking on rental cars, flight plans, hangar and office duties, cleaning a/c on the road, etc. Not really a con, but you are doing more then flying the plane. Sometimes, flying feels like its 2nd to everything else.
-Schedule: We are not on call 24/7, but I do "cover" alot of weekends and holidays.
-Bad trips: We spend alot of time at TEB.....enough said!
I know not all corp. jobs are like this, but there are alot of good, descent positions available. I do think it is harder to break into the corp. aviation due to it being a smaller world. Usually, you have know someone and then back it up w/ your abilities. One other thing, not all F500 flight departments are what they appear to be on the outside. I know of a couple of large companies that can't keep pilots. You have to find what fits you......
Good luck,
SCT
PS- Any of you corp. guys/ gals have problems w/ your D.M.? I am beginning to think alot of these guys have a hard on for pilots. Our DM does anything to get the pilots in trouble w/ corp. They must think we are a lazy, drunk, golf playing, idiots.........well he is partly correct.
English
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Aloha is considered by some to be an LCC..we have an A and a B fund. We have guys here in their third and fourth years making 130k.sleepy said:
To throw in my .02, I'd recommend going the corporate route as well. You'll move higher up the ladder sooner by going corporate. Not charter, and not crappy corporate, but a decent company.
well thank you all for the info. im thinking the same way that corp is the way to go. im still low time so i have to look hard for people to use me. im flying a challenger right now so im trying to get as much time as i can in that. im lucky to have a family member in the business for a long time now so ive been given a few breaks on the low time. i have no problem with the other non flying duties, its part of the job. ive done worse things than carry a few bags. i used to do scaffolding to pay some bills. that job sucks...plus the steel is a lot heavier. im flying part time for an awesome company right now. good pay but they fly a hell of a lot and are away from home a lot if your full time. but again thanks for all the info. good luck to all
I'll add my two cents as someone who's done the freight, regionals, major (furloughed), corporate charter, small part 91 corporate, and now flying for an LCC (jetBlue).
The best job by far was flying for a major, pre-9/11. Unfortunately, during this time of contraction, and virtual paradigm shift in the industry, I don't think we'll be returning to the "good ol' days" - at least not for a very long time.
JetBlue is already a very, very close second; and it's second only because I'm feeling the financial pinch of starting over again at 1st year pay (although 50K + profit sharing (15%) is pretty darn good on a relative basis). Sleepy said:
One of the biggest benefits of JetBlue is the schedule. Most lines of flying have between 14 and 19 days off per month. I also earn 108 hours of PTO a year (paid time off - JB lumps vacation, sick and personal, all in one bank). Depending on how healthy you are (ie. needing to use it for sick time), it translates into well over a month of vacation a year. Our scheduling is also super, super flexible.
Now about corporate:
My biggest complaint with corporate (and no, I was nowhere in the league of F100 stuff, so you can't base it on that), was the lack of hard days off. I was paid well, got good benefits, but didn't have any schedule. The boss really considered the weekends that I'd spend in a nice resort as my time off. And it was fun for a few months - getting to "live well on the card", but then you start to wonder why you're making a big mortgage payment every month - to a house you're never in. Understand, that my experience is fairly typical of the small 91 flying, ie. 2 pilots per airplane, with a lot of "owner" flying on the side. It's also pretty unstable; I have lots of friends that have lost jobs due to their owner's selling the jet.
Please don't compare this to the kinds of jobs that FalconCapt and G200 have; there's no comparision. With that being said, I'd rank their jobs right up there at the top of the food chain. If you could land a job like that, you're set. Those types of jobs offer everything the legacy carriers offer and more - great salary, great benefits - including a retirement, leading edge technology and most importantly, a schedule!
If I could do it all over again...I would probably go to med-school!
Remember, going down one path won't necessarily restrict you from another.
Good luck!
The best job by far was flying for a major, pre-9/11. Unfortunately, during this time of contraction, and virtual paradigm shift in the industry, I don't think we'll be returning to the "good ol' days" - at least not for a very long time.
JetBlue is already a very, very close second; and it's second only because I'm feeling the financial pinch of starting over again at 1st year pay (although 50K + profit sharing (15%) is pretty darn good on a relative basis). Sleepy said:
I can only speak for JetBlue, but I'll be an A320 Captain next year (definately not taking 15 years), making on average 130K - not including the additional 15% profit sharing (19.5K). I have 6000 shares of B6 stock that I do consider monopoly money. I'm not planning my retirement strategy with it (that's what the 401K and profit sharing go towards). But if it follows anything close to the Southwest stock charts, I'll be a millionaire before the decade ends. Ya never know.
One of the biggest benefits of JetBlue is the schedule. Most lines of flying have between 14 and 19 days off per month. I also earn 108 hours of PTO a year (paid time off - JB lumps vacation, sick and personal, all in one bank). Depending on how healthy you are (ie. needing to use it for sick time), it translates into well over a month of vacation a year. Our scheduling is also super, super flexible.
Now about corporate:
My biggest complaint with corporate (and no, I was nowhere in the league of F100 stuff, so you can't base it on that), was the lack of hard days off. I was paid well, got good benefits, but didn't have any schedule. The boss really considered the weekends that I'd spend in a nice resort as my time off. And it was fun for a few months - getting to "live well on the card", but then you start to wonder why you're making a big mortgage payment every month - to a house you're never in. Understand, that my experience is fairly typical of the small 91 flying, ie. 2 pilots per airplane, with a lot of "owner" flying on the side. It's also pretty unstable; I have lots of friends that have lost jobs due to their owner's selling the jet.
Please don't compare this to the kinds of jobs that FalconCapt and G200 have; there's no comparision. With that being said, I'd rank their jobs right up there at the top of the food chain. If you could land a job like that, you're set. Those types of jobs offer everything the legacy carriers offer and more - great salary, great benefits - including a retirement, leading edge technology and most importantly, a schedule!
If I could do it all over again...I would probably go to med-school!
Remember, going down one path won't necessarily restrict you from another.
Good luck!
Gulfstream 200
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Gulfstream 200
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That is the American Dream, isn't it? I know quite a few wealthy trial lawyers. They all came from humble beginnings (although Mr. Edwards family wasn't really all that poor by the standards of the time, his father was a manager at the mill, not a worker per se). It must be part of th e formula.Gulfstream 200 said:
Corporate flying can be great but can you ever build PIC time with this company? If you want to fly for a larger company later down the road, they hire future captains and want some PIC turbine time. This is not always the case but many do want some PIC time to show that one day you can take on the responsibility of being a captain. PIC turbine time is also great if you change you mind in five years and decide to go fly for a major. A lot of majors require 1000 PIC Turbine and I bet the rest will follow over the next few years. Remember the company might type you and let you fly from the left seat, but your boss still signs for the AC making him the PIC. It can be hard leaving a small corporation without burning bridges. This can be hard during a background check since they call you boss. My advice is to find a good 91/135 operator that flies owners and some charter to get a feel what it might be like. You can upgrade in couple of years, get some PIC time and then move into the corporation you really want or move to the majors. I have taken this road and found it to be a great experience. The pilots in our company have gone in both directions. Some have found great corporate jobs and others have gone to almost every major airline. If you need more information just PM me.
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