Controller & WN Pilots suspended.....

[waveflyer]

Is it really?
Or are the scared of their own shadows pilots taking over?

Guess you guys think the tipping your wings to HNL and a low pass is unsafe too-

Sorry but on the last flight- that B24 story is nothing but great- and to suspend pilots for getting too close to another plane at the request of the controller just doesn't sound that scary either...

Like the previous poster said- how close do we get in SFO, SNA, LAX when landing 24L and R-

They clearly had the other plane in sight and adhered to the controllers instructions- we don't know exactly how close they got- so what's the problem?

 

[jetracer5]

Only been flying for the airlines for 6 years but everyday I feel the FAA and the government suck away a little bit of fun everyday..... In 2004 my neighbor who I have known all my life tried his hardest to get me approved to ride the jumpseat on his retirement flight.......nothing.....nobody would approve it.

 

[ultrarunner]

from what I read they were closer than 1000'. the article said the SWA was initially at 12,000 and the SR22 at 11,000 and the SWA descended to get a better look-it didn't say how close they got.

Ahh, ok, well that's way uncool to do that. As a previous post said, the AF guys would have had a blast doing that intercept. Why not give 'em a call, esp with no contact for over an hour? I didn't think ATC waited that long nowadays.

 

[Dan Roman]

The Feds don't seem to get all bent out of shape when we cozy up to each other on closely spaced simultaneous visuals such as 28L&R at SFO?

I think the diference is that on the PRM approach both crews have been trained to do it and both crews did it with advanced planning, The 737 crew in this case had no idea what he was cozing up to and what the reaction of the private pilot would be by the surprise.

 

[Dan Roman]

...and the SWA Captain may very well fly one of those fighters, hence his apparent comfort level with a little bit 'o wingwork.

I think you are being facetious, but if you are not.......anyone who thinks because he flew formation in the military thinks that it would make it OK to do the same with an airliner full of passengers has a serious lack of judgement.

 

[IBNAV8R]

"However, the airplanes apparently got too close to each other in violation of FAA minimums for separation of aircraft."

Probably not the most prudent move but, what, exactly, are the required "minimums" for visual separation?

 

[regionalcap]

Is it really?
Or are the scared of their own shadows pilots taking over?

Guess you guys think the tipping your wings to HNL and a low pass is unsafe too-

Sorry but on the last flight- that B24 story is nothing but great- and to suspend pilots for getting too close to another plane at the request of the controller just doesn't sound that scary either...

Like the previous poster said- how close do we get in SFO, SNA, LAX when landing 24L and R-

They clearly had the other plane in sight and adhered to the controllers instructions- we don't know exactly how close they got- so what's the problem?

Flying an approach into SFO etc. you have both flights aware of each other and talking to the controller. Here you only have one airplane aware of the close flying....big difference. You have no idea of the reaction of the cirrus aircraft when he sees a 737 getting close. You have a responsibility to get the passengers safely to their destination. Leave the rest to the military.

 

[N1atEcon]

Ditto to the above post. Shouldn't have done it!

 

[scoreboardII]

Really? Think about that next time someone starts asking for help on guard "I must get pax to destination, ignore guard call."

I guess this places you in the same group that would have "gone around because it's safer" with the sleeping controller incident.

 

[waveflyer]

There seems to always be two groups anytime flyers end up in the media: those who hang them (really, trying in vain to prove their own superiority) and those that give them the benefit of the doubt and have their back.

I'll have their back until the investigation is closed.

And for those who want to launch fighters for this- how much money are you willing to waste to do what?--- protect st. Pete from a cirrus two miles up??

Don't call yourself a fiscal conservative if you think that's a good idea- maybe launch a CAP c210 eventually... Or have a police chopper already up check him out if he gets lower near civilization... But fighters?? C'mon-

 

[Dan Roman]

There seems to always be two groups anytime flyers end up in the media: those who hang them (really, trying in vain to prove their own superiority) and those that give them the benefit of the doubt and have their back.

I'll have their back until the investigation is closed.

And for those who want to launch fighters for this- how much money are you willing to waste to do what?--- protect st. Pete from a cirrus two miles up??

Don't call yourself a fiscal conservative if you think that's a good idea- maybe launch a CAP c210 eventually... Or have a police chopper already up check him out if he gets lower near civilization... But fighters?? C'mon-

Well, generalizations are always wrong and framing it with an insult certainly doesn't add to the debate.
We make decisions on the fly in this business and that's what this guy was faced with. It's easy to sit here and judge, but, the general opinion seems to agree that forming up on a private pilot with an airliner full of paxs is not a great choice. Especially given the fact that you have no idea what his reaction will be or his mental state.

 

[Dan Roman]

Really? Think about that next time someone starts asking for help on guard "I must get pax to destination, ignore guard call."

I guess this places you in the same group that would have "gone around because it's safer" with the sleeping controller incident.

Of course you don't ignore it, it's HOW you handle it that counts.

 

[waveflyer]

Do you honestly know the mental state of every taildragger in the 19L pattern at SNA?
Those things bomb in at us at 300'-

I'm not saying this isn't a mistake- I'm saying that we don't know enough yet to hang them-
Maybe you trust the media's version of events more than I do. But a vast majority of times, I do trust the judgement of an ATP- they get my benefit of the doubt- and if you don't like insults- don't do things that require them- to me it's a dick move to judge these guys yet- are you saying me backing off or toning it down would help the debate? Sorry- I disagree w/ that premise- I respect every poster on FI- but not every opinion.

 

[DDAY]

Had a T-34 join up on a F-14 years back, Tomcat was flying level overhead NAS field. T-34 instructor took controls from student and went to join up on Tomcat. The T-34 got got sucked onto the tomcat's right wing. (heavy plane vs light plane) F-14 flew over the gulf and swept it's wings back to allow the airstream to push what was left of the T-34 fuselage off the Toms wing. 2 pilots dead, lesson learned.

 

[Axel]

Senator Heinz and 6 Others Killed In Midair Crash Near Philadelphia

By JOHN H. CUSHMAN Jr., Special to The New York Times
Published: April 05, 1991


Senator John Heinz and six other people died today when his chartered plane collided in the air with a helicopter inspecting the plane's landing gear.


Burning wreckage fell on the grounds of an elementary school in nearby Lower Merion Township; two of the dead were children playing outside at noon recess.


Besides Senator Heinz, a Pennsylvania Republican, two other people on his plane and the two pilots on the helicopter were killed in the collision. At least two other children, the school custodian and an unknown number of other bystanders were injured, the local authorities said. One boy was burned critically.


The collision came after the Senator's plane reported a problem with its landing gear and the helicopter offered to fly nearby to see whether the gear was down for a landing, according to preliminary reports from aviation officials in Washington...

 

[FlyinGuy]

Had a T-34 join up on a F-14 years back, Tomcat was flying level overhead NAS field. T-34 instructor took controls from student and went to join up on Tomcat. The T-34 got got sucked onto the tomcat's right wing. (heavy plane vs light plane) F-14 flew over the gulf and swept it's wings back to allow the airstream to push what was left of the T-34 fuselage off the Toms wing. 2 pilots dead, lesson learned.

Those T-34's must have some kinda power to join up with a "Tomcat" in the pattern. If it did happen, it sounds more like a mid-air vs a rejoin.

 

[Redmeat]

Senator Heinz and 6 Others Killed In Midair Crash Near Philadelphia

By JOHN H. CUSHMAN Jr., Special to The New York Times
Published: April 05, 1991


Senator John Heinz and six other people died today when his chartered plane collided in the air with a helicopter inspecting the plane's landing gear.


Burning wreckage fell on the grounds of an elementary school in nearby Lower Merion Township; two of the dead were children playing outside at noon recess.


Besides Senator Heinz, a Pennsylvania Republican, two other people on his plane and the two pilots on the helicopter were killed in the collision. At least two other children, the school custodian and an unknown number of other bystanders were injured, the local authorities said. One boy was burned critically.


The collision came after the Senator's plane reported a problem with its landing gear and the helicopter offered to fly nearby to see whether the gear was down for a landing, according to preliminary reports from aviation officials in Washington...

That pretty much says it all right there...

Theres a very simple rule to follow in the airline business for keeping your nose clean, and it goes like this...

If it ain't printed in black and white... on a page in a manual... at your finger-tips... available for you to read...DON'T DO IT.

You want cool factor? ...join the airshow circuit. You "jonesing" to fly formation?...join the military.

The airlines are for smooth, straight and level flight, designed to provide THE SAFEST POSSIBLE outcome for it's passengers...PERIOD.