Continuing past FAF with vis. below mins 121

[Jethead737]

Can someone tell me if this a change to 121 or has it always been here. It appears to me that we can continue the approach past the FAF if the Vis. is below mins on a Cat 1 approach as long as we are using the ILS and PAR. Am I reading it right? Of course we must have the required vis. at the DH to land.


121.651.


(d) A pilot may begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure other than a Category II or Category III procedure at an airport when the visibility is less than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure if that airport is served by an operative ILS and an operative PAR, and both are used by the pilot. However, no pilot may continue an approach below the authorized DH unless the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or the following requirements are met:
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers and where such a descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;

(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used; and

(3) Except for Category II or Category III approaches where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the authorization of the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:

(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.

(ii) The threshold.

(iii) The threshold markings.

(iv) The threshold lights.

(v) The runway end identifier lights.

(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.

(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.

(viii) The touchdown zone lights.

(ix) The runway or runway markings.

(x) The runway lights.

 

[Singlecoil]

I've never noticed that one, but have you ever done a PAR approach under 121? I haven't. I don't think I've ever done one at all for that matter.

 

[NoPax]

I don't think its a change

As I understand it you may start an approach if the clouds are below the minimums on the IAP. This allows you to see the Approach Lights etc. and continue descending (not lower than 100ft below DA) until the Runway Environment is in sight.

There is a paragraph that states the Visibility must be at or above the minimum listed for the category of aircraft.

I've been teaching that for about 3 years

 

[TonyC]

\

Can someone tell me if this a change to 121 or has it always been here. It appears to me that we can continue the approach past the FAF if the Vis. is below mins on a Cat 1 approach as long as we are using the ILS and PAR. Am I reading it right? Of course we must have the required vis. at the DH to land.


121.651.

You can look at current and some historical FARs on the FAA website.


It appears that this paragraph was last amended by "Amdt. 121-303, Eff. 2/9/2004."




Inflight visibility is required to land. It can only be measured from the cockpit with pilot eyeballs.





.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

Inflight visibility is required to land. It can only be measured from the cockpit with pilot eyeballs.

That is the key phrase.

 

[Donsa320]

That proviso has been in the regulations (CAR and FAR) for at least 50 years but where do you find a PAR these days? Maybe the odd military joint use base. The procedure is to fly the ILS with a PAR monitoring you. But you still have to have the required visibilty to land but YOU get to determine that.
That is surprisingly permissive but a nice authortity to have though rarely available and seldom used.

~DC

 

[bafanguy]

That proviso has been in the regulations (CAR and FAR) for at least 50 years but where do you find a PAR these days? Maybe the odd military joint use base. The procedure is to fly the ILS with a PAR monitoring you. But you still have to have the required visibilty to land but YOU get to determine that.
That is surprisingly permissive but a nice authortity to have though rarely available and seldom used.

~DC

Donsa,

To use this provision of the FAR, would your ops specs have to list the PAR as an approved approach for your company/equipment type, or would the availability of the PAR in a monitor function be all that's required ?

I seem to remember that only our MD11's in the Pacific operation were approved by ops specs to shoot PARs which is a different situation from the apparent intent of this FAR.

All rather academic because, as you said, when are you going to see a PAR in a domestic airline operation. We used to get them in the non-sked days flying charters into military bases but that's the last time I saw one.

 

[Donsa320]

Donsa,

To use this provision of the FAR, would your ops specs have to list the PAR as an approved approach for your company/equipment type, or would the availability of the PAR in a monitor function be all that's required ?

I seem to remember that only our MD11's in the Pacific operation were approved by ops specs to shoot PARs which is a different situation from the apparent intent of this FAR.

All rather academic because, as you said, when are you going to see a PAR in a domestic airline operation. We used to get them in the non-sked days flying charters into military bases but that's the last time I saw one.

Good question. I looked through the ops spec from my previous life and PAR's were not on the approved approach list for any airplane. Nor was the monitored ILS take a look mentioned any where either.

Yet 121.651 is addressed to "all certificate holders".

I guess I'd like a reading from my POI before I stuck my neck out. <big grin>

The only place we ever used the monitiored approach authority was at Duluth, MN where the USAF had an all weather interceptor unit and a dynamite GCA (PAR) to get those kids back in safely. The fog rolling in from Lake Superior could last for days.
It sure helped our airline Convairs and DC-3's get in too.

~DC

 

[ClearRight]

I don't think its a change

As I understand it you may start an approach if the clouds are below the minimums on the IAP. This allows you to see the Approach Lights etc. and continue descending (not lower than 100ft below DA) until the Runway Environment is in sight.

There is a paragraph that states the Visibility must be at or above the minimum listed for the category of aircraft.

I've been teaching that for about 3 years

You need to read it again and revamp what you're teaching!

The reg states that visibility is controlling- the approach minimums have nothing to do with cloud bases. Also, with approach lights in sight you may continue to 100 feet ABOVE TDZ ELEVATION. It just so happens to work out to be 100' below DA on a standard 200' ILS, but take a look at some the mountainous approaches and you will find DA's greater than 200'.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

My former charter company (135) was authorized for PAR and ASR approaches, never did one there though. My current company (121) is not authorized to fly either of the radar approaches for whatever reason. Did plenty of ASR's while instructing but never found a place that offered PAR.